Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Right to the Source. My name is Robin Harrison and I'm here, as ever, with the clerk to my Lewis, Mr. Ed Birkin. Ed, how are you today?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: I mean, you just call me Superman. Yeah.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: No, Lewis and Clark.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: No. But the clerk.
I'm your Clark, Clark Kent. And you're Lewis and you're Slain, who
[00:00:38] Speaker C: is also a reporter.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: So this is genius.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: I'm not a reporter. I live in a weird manner.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: You try to be.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: No, I live in a weird, liminal land between writing stuff and management, I suppose. No, Lewis and Clark, they were a pair of explorers and they mapped a lot of the U.S.
yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: When they went through Montana. Yeah, yeah, there's that. But actually, what you're really saying, subliminally.
Okay, openly, is that you view me as Superman and you're kind of in love with me, which is sweet, but that's not normally how this. This thing goes.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: No, I mean, this is taking a turn. I thought that was quite historical. Quite interesting.
Here we are. Yeah, yeah. Look at where we are now. And obviously we're in the middle of the World Cup. We will touch on that a bit later. But let's bring in our guest.
We always promise people guests. Generally, guests are listening to the podcast and are scared away. But luckily we have convinced duped Dan Phillips to join us today. So, Dan, very nice to have you here.
[00:01:48] Speaker C: Well, thank you and I'm honored to be here. And I'd have done some research beforehand if I knew we were going to get into historical figures, actually. Also thought you said Lois, to be fair at the start. So I don't want to get into the.
Into the accent thing, but as I look at the screen, I'm in the middle. So, you know, what does that make me? The rose, I guess. Right.
But there you go.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Lex. Lex Luther.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Lex. Oh, there you go. I got the haircut for it. There you go. I like it. I'll take. I'll take Lex Luther. Yeah, well, he was a successful business. Jean Hatton. Lex Luther, right.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: The best one.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: The classic.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not monsters.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: But Lex Luther was a successful businessman. You see, this is what. This is what you call a seamless transition.
Okay. Lex Luthor was a successful businessman.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: As is our guest today, Dan Phillips. Welcome to the room, Dan.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: Oh, look at that.
That's the one you use in the final edit. Oh, yeah, that one.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:45] Speaker C: Forget about the criminal. The criminal stuff and all of that.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: I mean, it's the gambling. I Mean look, you know, gambling industry, shades of gray. What someone calls criminal, other people call opportunistic, other people call brave, you know, people call innovative.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: There's always. Yeah, we use a lot of euphemisms in this industry. And don't worry, it all, it all stays in.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Well, I think actually this is my 30th year.
I joined, I joined a basement casino in Soho in 1996.
So I've seen every side of the industry. And so there's been the good, the bad, the ugly and the possibly slightly gray, you know, along the way. And obviously now it's all highly regulated.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Dan, can I ask you a question? Please. So I, I did my research on, on this ahead of the episode.
I typed your name in to get Victor to fill in the gaps. And you started off as a, a kind of apprentice or junior dealer in, in the casino in Soho, as he said.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Did you ever mess up any of the cards? And what was the worst thing that happened?
Because you can never get it right all the time.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: I messed up many, many, many things. I started, it was Labra. So Labrador had a training school, if anyone remembers. Rainers Lane, head office for Labrooks.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:04] Speaker C: Up in northwest London.
They had a training school there. We had all these suits running retail business. And then for about eight weeks this bunch of ruffians came in and started messing around, playing games.
Well, they taught us how to play the deal, blackjack and then initially roulette. And then I went to Charlie Chester's first, which doesn't exist anymore. And the basement in Soho in Archer street for those that know.
But it's the most nerve wracking thing I've ever done. Certainly when you first start out those first months, it's like learning to drive. Like you learn how to drive, then you, and then you start driving and you realize you don't really know how to drive. But you don't ever actually admit that to anybody. Right.
You know, I spun the wheel, the ball out of the wheel and smacked someone in the head on more than one occasion.
You know, you know, I've, I've. You know, if you just imagine a heavy roulette table right, where you've got chips that was called like skyscrapers. Chips were stacked up.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Especially on like the lower denomination tables. We used to, I used to do a 25p roulette on like an afternoon shift which was full of Chinatown residents, if you like. It just came in just, just phenomenal. And the ball dropped into. I can't remember what Was it was like 32 and I put the, called it the Dolly on top of 28 and cleared 28 and it actually was in 32. So there was like 100 screaming people that I just basically wiped out all of their bets and, and someone had to try and reconstruct that over the space of an hour via some poor video footage and then ended up giving everyone an extra 50 quid I think, just to shut them up.
But there, there were many things like many things like that.
But anyway, yeah, so those were really good times. But what I would say is definitely a young man's game of working nights and weekends and sort of bank holidays. And then yeah, kind of online came along about five, six years later and I sort of jumped at that and there you go, didn't really look back.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: It's quite, this industry, it's quite kind of Hotel California, isn't it? You can check out whenever you want, but you can never leave because it does feel like people come into the industry and then they kind of.
You very rarely see people ever leave it. I mean like, did you, like, how was it for you? Did you kind of find it was a case of you got into it, you moved up and you just kept going and then suddenly you thought, holy, I've got a career here. Or is it kind of a bit more.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: I think no, I'd love to say that there was a grand plan. Anyone that does is there's probably element of, in it, people might have an idea of kind of what they want to do, but I really didn't and I did. I did a college and the study thing and did a bit of traveling and then didn't know what I wanted to do. Actually. It was my old man who worked in casinos for a million years. He used to work. I used to run Playboy Casino back in the, back in the 60s. And there's a whole bunch of stories for another podcast there.
Pre1968 Gambling Act. So that was the proper, proper dark, dark, dark times where it was all run by gangsters. But I'm talking about regulated times.
No, but this, but this thing came along and I thought, oh, actually this is all right, you know, I'm quite enjoying this. And then I moved online and then, you know, I was getting paid like retail money and then all of a sudden you move online and the money goes up quite, quite quickly. And in fact, in fact I joined Eurobet initially to launch the online casino and they, they took me on, on a six month contract because they didn't know me. And they didn't know if this online thing was going to work. Right.
And then every two years the industry has kind of evolved, right. Whether it's products and technology and, and, and new markets. And that's what's kept it interested for me. I'm still looking for that job that I really want. You know, maybe I'll find it, but that's, that's why, that's why I'm still here. And you know, we do get paid pretty well, right. You know, compared to other industries for sure. And there's no point trying to hide that it is.
And it's not really, it's not really work, is it, ultimately.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Although there are, there are tough days and you know, I had a number of years working in B2B with customers beating me up and that wasn't particularly always pleasurable, but, but always done with good humor, I hope, anyway.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: I mean, the industry you're, you're describing, where it doesn't feel like work and it's well paid, is certainly not on the analysis side of it because that is not, that's news to me. And from how Robin complains, it's definitely not on the journalism or non journalism side of it, whichever he claims he's on. But yeah, you guys raking it in on the, on the supplier side.
[00:08:23] Speaker C: All right, well, let me, let me, let me caveat that slightly. So you think 2001, I joined this was before the first, I guess, 2005 Gambling Act. And then obviously it's got harder as the years have gone, but more regulation, which is all right, which is right and proper.
But when we started out, when I started at Eurobet, they had a, they had a, they used a web page to show odds for telephone betting. That was all they used it for. And then they gradually turned it into a transactional site. And then Coral bought Euroba and then we launched coral.co.uk, or version one of that. But back then there was like hardly any, any competition, so it was easier.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: I'm by no means, you know, the smartest guy, you know, in the room, but it was hard not to make money then. And it's got harder for sure, and it's got much, much harder recently with obviously increasing tax and, and sort of regulation and, and, you know, maybe what we'll get on to around product innovation, you know, as well and well as you do say that. I do remember looking at subscriptions to H2 back in the past and I always thought that they're a little bit Pricey. So you know, maybe, maybe there is some margin there. Right.
I'm going to throw a little bit
[00:09:31] Speaker B: as you're definitely the smartest guy on this podcast. But after that comment,
[00:09:37] Speaker A: can I, can
[00:09:38] Speaker B: we just go back to this innovation point? Because it's one that I, Robin loves talking about innovation of the industry and I'm just not sure it's really innovated that much in the past few years. I mean you've had live casinos, been around for forever. You've had the inplay, okay, you've got bet builders slash same game parlays. But are they really an innovation? It's just a layer over the top of what is effectively a multiple beds.
Prediction markets are not innovative at all. It's just all getting small.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it's exchange better.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: I don't really think there's been that much innovation in the past few years,
[00:10:12] Speaker C: but I could be.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: So I would just caveat that with Ed making me sound like some kind of rabid, starry eyed innovation, you know, seeing everything as innovation. I mean like what I would say is where I think you actually see some innovation is in the problem solving. It's not kind of like the shiny new stuff that you get in the industry. It's more kind of like measured iterative thinking, you know what I mean? I think that's where you actually see the industry progressing. You could argue, well, even kind of like moving online, you think moving from kind of in person retail to telephone betting to online. It's essentially each one is kind of solving a problem.
And in a way that a lot of products you could argue probably don't. You could say something like crash games.
That is so easy to understand and that's solving a problem of as you expand into new markets, say somewhere like Brazil. Obviously slots were outlawed decades ago. That doesn't mean they weren't being played. But there wasn't that sort of that muscle memory, you know. Like you think in the west, you know, we've all got some kind of iteration of a casino. Whether it's like a one armed bandit, you know, kind of like, you know, like a fruit machine. There's, you know, there's kind of, there's an idea of what it is, but kind of beyond that.
Yeah, innovation really, you know, I mean like from my perspective it comes down to problem solving. Not this shit shiny and new.
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Yeah, but all those things you've said have come from other places. Right? It's not like we, we as an industry have said, hey, you know, this is what we, what We've done. You can argue that crash is an evolution of social gaming.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Right?
[00:11:54] Speaker C: And I'm sure that when, you know, the first person came up with the idea of the crash game or making a decision, it's a cash out, right? And sports betting was doing cash out for, you know, 15, 20 years.
It's just, it's just, you know, there's an old cliche out there, but it's already out there in the future, right. It hasn't gone mainstream.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: And, and you know, I do believe, I do believe that to be the case. But when you look at solving a problem, so people have solved problems way better than we have, you know, as an industry. I mean, Steve Jobs is like the classic, you know, he made MP3s work right before the iPod. MP3s have been around forever, right? But they just, no one used them. And then, and then he made it easy. Sky, Sky TV made recording something easy, Right. You know, we all remember. Well, some of us do, I guess maybe some of your listeners don't. Trying to record something on vhs, it was like, you know, it was unbelievable.
And now you just press one button on your, on your sky remote and then you recorded it. And you know, and even that, you don't do that. People do that less and less because they're streaming it, right? And they're making it, and they're making it easy. So I think we maybe monetized, starting to monetize those better or more innovatively arguably.
And I think we're good at merging or smashing things together, like taking one concept and moving it with another and say, okay, how can we do this? And the next stage may be producing products that are more, that are more efficient so that they're quicker to play. So people's habits in pretty much everything have reduced. Right. People get bored after 10 seconds of doing anything.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:21] Speaker C: So don't give them a game that's going to last, you know, five, five, six minutes, which, you know, some, some areas do. And you know, you know, I've seen some slots recently where they're just one real slots, right. And actually I quite like it. Flick your thumb and you win, you lose, bang, bang, bang, and off you go. But you write up to the African markets where, you know, currently it's still, it's still, you have to work to a lower end spec, so you have to, you have to almost go back. And that's why, you know, things like Minecraft are still popular. I think people still like that blocky, pixelated, you know, type of thing. So I, I have no answers when it comes to the, comes to innovation, but I'm always like to drill it in, drill it into others to help me come up with some ideas.
I think what I can call over 30 years is, you know, is to call on something whether that's how long it's going to take to build or how much it's going to cost. That's what I get a feel for now.
Whether someone says, should the button be here or the button be here or that was red or this is green, I don't know.
But you know, I think getting out in front of customers, yes, but also they don't know what they want either. So you've got to throw 100 things against the wall. Right. And see all three of the sticks.
Yeah, I'll try and move away from
[00:14:33] Speaker A: cliches now and, and so on that innovation point, I mean, yeah, it, I think this kind of works as a segue on that innovation point, that lack of innovation point.
But on, on that point around the topic of innovation.
Right. I think that brings us nicely to talking about what you're going to be doing at IGB Live, because you're working with us obviously through IGB Executive on our open space format. And it's always kind of an interesting one because obviously you've been in the industry 30 years, ed.
I don't know how long you've been in the industry. It feels like you've been kicking about forever as long as I have.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: 20. 20. It's just the gray hair and the bags under the eyes that make it seem like longer.
Yeah.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: And. Well, I mean, you were still covering it before then, you know, in banking.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: No, no, that's including banking. No, 20, 20 years ago I was still at university.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Oh, 20, I thought 20.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: You know, I'm not as, I'm not as old as I look.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: As old as me.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: It's just the life of a banking analyst. And then, you know, looking at all you guys on the outside and, you know, trying to join in on the little parties at the conferences and, you know, we can't do it as geeks.
You can't wear it as well as you guys.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: I mean, I had hair when I started, so I'm not sure I'm wearing
[00:16:00] Speaker C: it well, you know, actually I didn't have hair when they started. To be fair, I didn't know.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Let's not ruin your transition, Robin. So you're talking about innovation. Somehow that went to IGB Live and then, and then we got stuck.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, so we're talking about innovation and we're also talking about that. And you know.
Well, let me start again.
We're talking about innovation and then I think that brings us nicely on to talking about what you're doing with us at IGB Live Dam with IGB Executive, these kind of open space formats, because I think it's always an interesting one because essentially it's almost like an alternative to the conference format in terms of kind of facilitating this learning. But I suppose, I suppose kind of like the challenge with doing something like this is really, nine times out of ten when you're at a conference, the best conversation is going to be almost like an, an accidental one, you know, I mean, like you'll be standing outside, you know, kind of smoking, vaping, or just being outside and then, you know, start talking to someone next year and it will kind of lead on something.
But with Open space, I mean, is there, is there an element of kind of trying to almost kind of, I suppose like engineer that sort of spontaneous, unprompted conversation and like, how do you do that without killing it?
[00:17:31] Speaker B: And can you perhaps explain to our listeners what open space is for those who don't know, as Robin clearly didn't.
[00:17:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: And also we do not condone smoking and vaping outside of conferences. Carry on.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: I think ultimately it's, it's, it's talking with rather than talking at firstly.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:47] Speaker C: But, but open space that, you know, this is, this is a format that you guys have as a company, Clarion, as was, and now World Gaming have been running for a number of years. Right. And it started, you know, I believe as a collection of senior execs, a chance to get in the room kind of speak with a little bit of Chatham House rules going on behind the scenes. And it, and it evolved from, I think the early ones I went to, I don't know, it must have been seven, eight years ago now, you know, you're kind of locked away in a room for like a full day.
It was typically a day before, before a conference. I remember doing a couple over on the Monday before G2E because there's no distractions in Vegas where you need to be locked away for a day. Right. So that.
Nothing else to do there.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: It's a very boring tone.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: Yeah, but, but I think what's evolved over time and I've done, I've done podcasts many times and I've done panels and I've moderated things and in fact, I'm also moderating a panel for you guys during the show as well outside of open space. But I've always felt like asking the same three or four people the same question and getting a similar answer or no answer because they don't want to give something away, they don't want to share any data. And that frustrates me. And I would call people out on that during these things and sometimes they would answer, sometimes they would buy it, sometimes they wouldn't, or they just say, yes, I agree with person to my left.
And then you look in the audience and you see people on their phones and you know, they're kind of, they're kind of not engaged.
So the idea of this format is that it's happening during the show. So it's 2:30 on, on the Wednesday the 1st.
It's in the south galleries, I believe, which is upstairs.
We've got, I think I checked this morning, about 70 people signed up for it, 7 0, which is pretty good.
So the idea is, is that come into the room, there'll be some, some light refreshments, I'm sure.
Introduce.
We, we've actually set this one, although typically they've been previously kind of any, any, any subject goes. And we'd ask people to call out subjects and people would put stickers up on the wall and we try and work out what we're going to talk about. And that could be very diverse. It could be Africa on this table, AI on this table and crypto on that table or, or whatever.
Then people would move to the table that they were most interested in or, or the subject and we give them 10, 15 minutes, they talk about it on that table and then one person will be nominated, they present it back. Then we would debate. So my, so my format is, is, you know, along those lines, although we've got this one talking about innovation that we spoke about earlier is around product innovation. That's kind of the kind of main focus and really setting it as saying, well, do we need it? Do we need the innovation or do we need something which is a bit more focused on how we're going to evolve, Right.
So I pushed out there as part of the initial brief, four or five topics, you know, one of which, you know, are kind of different, you know, different kind of arguments that we just give more and more and more of the same, right? Just, just blast out the content, right? Whether that's slots or whether it's features, whether it's sports betting, you know, whatever it may be, just, just blast. And that's, that's, that's one argument someone can argue for it. Someone can argue against it.
Or we say actually maybe less but better. Right, so fewer, more premium experiences, better UI ux, which I think we struggle with somewhat.
Or do we focus on looking at customization more so more about making a frictionless experience. Right. So whether that's sign up or deposit or even what we're going to have to go through now in terms of identification of funds and so on and so forth and then Chuck in the, you know, can, you know, can, can AI take over completely or to what, to what level do we let that drive on? And what does that mean obviously for jobs and plastic and so on and so on, so on, or is there kind of something in the middle? So that's the kind of the framework of it.
So we'll have these four or five topics going on and it might be that on the day that we'll bin those topics off because something else has hit the media. Right. Last time we did this, I did it at ICE with you guys in, in Barcelona and I prepared quite a lot of stuff and all anyone wanted to talk about was prediction markets. Right? Yeah, and, and that's what, and that's what, that's what we spoke about. Right. Because there's no point me trying to force the room to say, hey, Dan thinks this and this is what we should talk about. So I will facilitate the room. I move around table to table, you know, I'll give a prod hit a prod here and there. Someone might say something that I may agree with, but I may not tell them I agree with them and I might disagree because I want, I want to stimulate that kind of debate.
But what was interesting actually. So the, of the 70 people that had responded, they all were asked to give some thoughts about what they would like to talk about as well. And 36% of all the respondents talk. Want to talk about AI. Right, right. And then I'm just going to go through the top five and then 12% want to talk about customer engagement and retention, 11% payments and then within that crypto and then 10% multiplayer type products and 5% regulated focus and then a bunch of other things that were kind of less than, less than.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: So the Python industry in this industry in AI is quite interesting because if you think about what people generally tend to do, it felt like with mobile you had at least three years of people just talking about it and saying that it was important, but never really kind of like pushing it forward and then, you know, kind of like in the background. I mean, I suppose it was, you know, it was going back to people like Probability, you know, kind of like Mbenga, these kind of companies that really kind of just in the background made shit actually happen. So I mean like with the, so with that kind of AI AI point, I mean do you think it's going to be a repeat of that in the industry? Essentially there's a few kind of, you know, almost kind of, almost like guys that are kind of a bit more kind of ancillary, ancillary to the industry, building it in the background while there's a lot of kind of noise around the rest of the sector about that. It's important. And well, I mean like you look at LinkedIn, I mean like all the kind of declarative posts or you know, you know, AI is killed, whichever function. And then everybody has, you know, I mean it just seems.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: No, and there's so many arguments to this and it's been talked about, you know, it's been talked about a lot.
First of all, you can't uninvent something, right? You just can't. So you know, kind of embrace it is my initial view.
But every time that we thought something was going to take over and kill something else, it didn't happen. So online didn't kill retail, right? Whether that's gambling or, or any, or anything or. It has changed, it's changed retail, right? But the high street still exists. It doesn't look like what it used to look like but, but they're still retail.
You know, I'm again going back a million years. I was running Gala Bingo online and we'd launch and we're doing really, really well and I got asked to speak at the Gala Retail Conference as was and you know, if they could have thrown rotten fruit at me and veggies, you know, they would have done because they thought I was going to steal all their business. Now, you know, retail bingo still exists, but it's again, it's changed.
And then everything was going to switch to mobile and everything else was going to die and so on and so forth. So I, I think what we'll see is maybe some will go to an extreme with it and maybe they'll go too far to the point where they, they forget how to make any kind of sensible decisions themselves and, and they, and they do that. But if we can help and use the technology to help produce games quicker, I mean, you know a high end slot game can take a year to build, right? Or even longer, right?
You can churn out a reskin in, in maybe a month or so. But if, if that content can be turned out okay, then we can do it a bit quicker.
But to my point earlier, do we need more content? Maybe we need the AI to help us learn. Right? So I'm, I'm a big believer that what you see what Ed says and Robin and you know, what you see when you log on to any site should be different to what I see. Right. It should learn from me. I should know my level of experience or type of play and present to me a proposition. Now AI can do that where probably no human could not without being very, very clunky. There's no reason why a single slot game can't evolve for me. You don't need to keep reinventing it. You don't need to drop in 200 new games a month that some claim to do, but just make it more specific. So I think that's where AI has the benefit. And I think if any company is not providing their teams with AI, then they're missing out. Right, because you're going to be more productive with it. I mean we all use it now, right. Even if I'm writing a brief email can get AI to take a look at it. Tidies it up and it sounds much better. I've still written it, but it's just been improved. I haven't said, hey, can you write a Robin, can you write an email to Robin and, and answer his questions on innovation for me?
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:03] Speaker C: You know, because it would be so generic but I, I would give it steer and then it would say hey Dan, you didn't think about this. So that, that for me is, is the way forward. I'm by no means a technologist either. Right. But I just don't see how you go back. So you have to embrace.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: I mean we've been hearing about personalization for at least 15 years and no, like it's, it's all been a load of shits. So maybe I can actually do that because after personalization then people were telling me about five, six years ago about hyper personalization and I was thinking you haven't even done the first bit yet like so I agree like AI and I think can help out and certain things like chat support payments, like there's lots of aspects I think taking it
[00:27:47] Speaker C: beyond just like Amazon recommends you buy this because other people buy it or this is what you buy. I think that that's been around for, you know, for some but for some time. But, but like I say to, to understand, not because you want to fleece me for every penny that I have. In fact the opposite. It's to make sure that I had the best experience that I can have and that, that my 20 quid, whatever I'm going to spend, that I have an experience where I've enjoyed it. I may end up losing, I may end up winning. But that's, that's, but that's, but that's gambling, you know, rather than, I guess, you know, if you go to the theater or you go and see your favorite comedian, you know you're going to have a good experience, right? Because you're certainly expecting, if you don't, then you would, then you're in the minority because normally you would be and you're going to go to that nice restaurant. So you've got that level of it, of experience. So why can't we do something similar?
And now I think it's people like, you know, you know, I remember gamesys were doing this a few years ago as well through their own, you know, even before AI that they were, they were able to understand a player, you know, the whole life cycle after two or three visits and they're able to customize what they were doing. And that was, I should imagine, quite, quite manual behind the scenes.
So you're right, Ed, it has been around for some time, but who can really, you know, really kind of make that work? But I guess the point of open space is not to solve the problems, but is to stimulate that debate. So I'll throw out, you know, some of those statements that I made before, maybe a couple of other ones again, that may be a little bit out there that you'd be looking at going, really, you know, you know, what planet are you on? But maybe that stimulates a little bit of debate and maybe people do start sharing and if we are under sort of, you know, Chatham House rules, I mean, I mean, there's no documentation, there's not been no report being written afterwards, it's not being recorded.
So, you know, if someone does want to come up with some ideas or say, hey, no, that's not what I've experienced. This is the reality of what I've experienced because they're an operator or they're a supplier, then that's really useful for everyone in the room. And I don't think you get that if you're on a normal panel, right, because no one wants to give that away. And you haven't normally got enough time either.
So this is for like 90 minutes. So we'll probably get through sort of two rounds and then hopefully people take something away and it's A bit of networking as well. Right. So, yeah, you know, it's, it's. It's pretty relaxed as well.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Well, Amazon prime use the personalization to give me a recommendation over the weekend of a film with my favorite actor, the great Mark Wahlberg. And I've been compared to him a few times.
And it was Balls up, which was about a marketing company. They're trying to promote the pitch in a condom for the World cup. And I can tell you that it was terrible.
[00:30:28] Speaker C: I watched that on a recent flight, actually.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: What was your view on it?
[00:30:33] Speaker C: Well, it was one of those film films that I thought was so bad it was actually bordering on being. Actually being okay.
But when you want. When you want. When you want to kill two hours of a flight, it. It was all right. But
[00:30:47] Speaker A: what are you film.
[00:30:49] Speaker C: Oh, whatever.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: It was.
[00:30:52] Speaker C: So, so what are the go to Mark Wahlberg films in that I'm somehow missing that put him in your top, you know, above.
Above Pacino.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: And, and. Well, I mean, look, I'm not going to say he's been in. In that many classics, let's be honest.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: He's been in some good Fighters and
[00:31:10] Speaker B: stuff, but he has. Oh, he has been in some good ones.
Four, but again, but I mean, I wouldn't put loads of them as classics like with Pacino, but there's some very watchful ones.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: You're about to say Four Brothers. Yeah, that was good.
Was there not one with an earthquake?
[00:31:26] Speaker B: What was the one where he was quite a dark one. Where he was. I mean, London probably around Boston, aren't they? Where he was.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: Was it.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Was he infiltrating the police?
[00:31:37] Speaker A: The.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: The police had a thing. It had like an infiltrator in.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: You mean the Oscar winning Martin Scorsese film the Departed?
[00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah. That's him, isn't he?
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
He's just like the angry police sergeant. He's great in that because instead of having to do anything heroic or try and act, he just turns up and shouts at people.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Oh, there's one where he was trying to do a.
Almost. I cried during the trailer actually.
He. He was.
He was trying to do an ultra. Was beyond an Ultra marathon thing. And then he found this stray dog.
[00:32:13] Speaker C: Oh, I did see that one. I saw that one with the canoeing down the river or something.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, terrible one. Pain and Gain with the rock, who's also.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: I like that.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: Beyond terrible.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: I thought that was brilliant.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: That was.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: I liked Pain and Game was good.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Ted was just very watchable.
[00:32:34] Speaker C: Yeah, but that was because of Seth Rogen. That Was already scripting. Is this what you say? Mark Wahlberg now comes on as a guest to promote a new slot slot machine that he's put his name to them?
[00:32:43] Speaker B: I mean, if Mark Wahlberg came on his guest, he could do whatever he wanted. There'll be no. I mean, not that we have any rules or structure in this, but yeah, he's two guns. Denzel. Yeah, there's loads of the Fighter. All right, we're going to get down.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah, he was in that with the Jim Carroll book.
[00:33:04] Speaker C: Clearly I bought you all with open space because, because obviously Mark Wahlberg is way more interesting.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: Well, I mean, he's, he's always gonna be more interesting.
[00:33:11] Speaker C: If you want, if you want, I can try and fit him in as like a topic around like branded games and see if I throw it as Mark Wahlberg out as a suggestion and see if anyone, if anyone bites.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Okay. I think he'd be up for that. You know, he has like his burger restaurant called Burgers.
Yeah, you know, he's, he's into kind of brand licensing. I think he would do quite well. Yeah, yeah, he's iconic and I think he cuts across all demographics
[00:33:40] Speaker B: probably so. Right, Dan. So moving on, as Robin likes to get sidetracked.
So you also have an advisory business now? We are generally pro regulated markets, Robin and I, but at least I've admitted I'm not sure if Robin publicly does that. Quite frankly, if I wanted to make money, be it as a supplier or operator, it just makes sense to, to target unregulated markets because it's just so much easier if you are advising someone to move into a regulated market.
Which of them, if any, are attractive to you?
[00:34:24] Speaker C: I mean, I mean, it depends, I guess on, on where they're coming from, their background, you know, local partners, infrastructure in place already, blah, blah, blah, you know, all of the above.
You probably start with how much budget that they have, their, their level of appetite, how long they want to be in that game for who their technology partner is.
I guess those are the things, the steps I'd go through, you know, first and try and help them with a plan to go through all of those. So if they haven't got the right, they want to go to Italy, do they have the right technical partner? Where are they with their certification in terms of what arms are looking for? So that's why I would say if, if the question is, is, you know, is it easier to make money in Greece than it is in the UK versus Sweden versus Spain, whatever. What other regulated market that you're looking at then. Then I guess maybe you put a better place to answer that than me in terms of. From a numbers perspective.
Although I'm, you know, I'm up there, you know, on my numbers. But I would say more from a. Okay, how do we build the team? How do we get the right people in place? And that's what I've been doing recently where a company I've been working with had a lot of, you know, square pegs in round holes potentially and it wasn't working out from a management team perspective. So that was something which came in. So, you know, those are the, that's probably my area, I'd say operational.
I'm also working with actually with a, with a startup company called Spartan Interactive who recently who are about to launch and they're building some actually bingo. Relations content which is with a little bit of social, a little bit of crash, a little bit of jeopardy attached to it. And that's, and that's quite interesting. And is it, you know, it is innovative, yes, within, within its space, but it's looking at trends and trying to take, trying to take them forward.
You know, if you say to me, you know, I want to launch a new gaming brand into New Jersey, right? I'll be like, well, come on, there's. How many? 40, 50, 60, whatever there are. And it's a pretty saturated market. And you can say the same, you can say same about the UK and everyone said, oh, hey, well let's all head down to Brazil. And we all know that's really hard and really expensive and you know it's going to take time. But you're right, if you want to make money then unregulated and if we're talking about unregulated versus illegal, then then yeah, you can make some money. Right.
And I guess it's at the point is, is that funding to help you move into regulated markets or into other spaces? So not sure that's an exact answer, but probably best you're going to get.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: It's a more thoughtful one than most we've had.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting point you made at the end there about funding the push into regulated markets because I think that's kind of a path quite well traveled.
But that then means there's a slightly weird distinction in the industry. You've got some fairly, what would you even call them, you know, kind of militant people that would say if, you know, anything that is not directly licensed is illegal, whereas a lot of the people in that kind of like gray area would then, you know, argue that, well, we are actually just doing a business and, you know, everything's kind of, you know, being done fairly and legitimately, sees other people that you need to watch out for, you know. So do you feel that, I mean, almost kind of puts the industry, I mean, like we've talked about this in the podcast before, the kind of black, gray, white type thing, but it's, it feels like at the moment there's, these lines are getting very blurred, you know, and it's almost like very difficult to, you know, kind of parse out what
[00:38:16] Speaker B: goes with a bit of background. Dan, in case you haven't listened to all of our past episodes. So while I appreciate Robin's view that pretty much every industry at some point was operating in gray or unlicensed markets, we have different views on things. Whereas he thinks someone who's making a load of money from non licensed markets, who decides to then stop that and go to licensed markets, should be viewed as being really righteous. And they're giving up money and they're doing, you know, really great stuff.
They cheated to get shitloads of money. And people have tried to play by the rules and now having to compete with someone who's got hugely deep pockets because they actually, and they're disadvantaged because they try to do the right thing. And I know there's nuances, but that's where we're coming from. Dan. No, Robin, you can't speak.
Please feel free to agree. Dan.
[00:39:05] Speaker C: I, I, I, I see, I see both the arguments sitting on that fence, splintered everywhere.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Fair.
[00:39:16] Speaker C: I don't know if I use the word fair or not.
If what you're doing is not illegal and you are operating responsibly, right, you're employing local people and maybe your license, where there is a taxation policy and you're paying your dues, are you hurting anybody? Is that fair? On, on. And then you move into the regulated market and you've got a couple of million in the bank because you've been operating well. And I'm not sure fair comes into it, I don't know, I mean, who are the, who are the major operators, you know, in the regulated markets? I mean they're all pretty, pretty big chunky brands, right? Who would, you know, in a heartbeat do whatever they could do.
And you know, some of those big tier ones can put pressure on, right, because they'll put pressure on their, on their platform providers to not work with you, I guess. I'm not advocating doing, you know, going through that route, but I have Seen that where, you know, it, it can be difficult, you know, especially they try and steal your people and, and, and so on and so forth. So look, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be righteous if that was the word, you know, that was used, because I work for companies that, that have done, worked in, in different markets as we, as we all have or have all looked at, maybe from your perspective that you've researched and Robin, that you've reported on. Right.
And there's a very, there's very high profile cases going on right now or people claiming things against each other. Right.
And I work for one of those and you know, I work with another one and I work with the other one.
So, you know, I've, I've seen it from all sides. Generally speaking, people want to, you know, make as much money for their shareholders as possible. And I've never seen, you know, fair on many CEOs.
You know, notepad. I don't know if you guys have.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think I've only admitted it.
[00:41:16] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I mean, I think, I think you make a really good point there. I mean, ultimately, you know, we can talk about fairness, but there are some companies, you could argue at the moment, they see their competitive position weakening and they are trying to use this kind of black market concept as essentially a way of pulling up the drawbridge.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: If a country said this is illegal, then it's illegal. And then, you know, I mean, you know, a million years ago I got approached by, by a company out in the, out in the Caribbean somewhere, you know, where I wasn't allowed to know the name of the person who was going to run the interview. And I said, well, this is just, it's just bollocks, right? And tell me your name or I'm not interested. Right? So, you know, you know, that didn't progress and I think we moved on a lot from that, I think. Hope so anyway.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Right.
I mean, I still, I wouldn't agree. I mean, I, I have a view on what's black market, but a lot of people wouldn't say if it comes to illegal, it's illegal. And then so look at three. So you can go, right, let's say France, okay? They say, you know, I, it's illegal to operate here without a license. Okay, fine, I think most people agree that's black market.
But then Norway says that and then you have people in Malta say, ah, well, we've got freedom of movement within, within Europe.
And then you'd have Chile who say, you know, it's illegal to operate here, you know, and people go, well, there is no licensing system, so if there's a licensing system in place, then we'll do it. But at the moment it's kind of, it's free to do it. Yeah. And, and you know, so it's, you know, the US didn't really have. Well, the US had no greater rules than anything else anyone else, you know, Uege was passed, which was just about enforcing the payments. Hence poker stars continue to operate and only got done for payment. It's only because, you know, the US were more likely to, you know, they had a bigger FBI and scarier than other places. So I, I think for a lot of people, you know, gray, black, white, you know, they just draw the lines on the gray and black wherever they want. I really don't think there's any universal view on it. You know, China, for some people, you know, until recently was, was used as, you know, not black, because there's no legislation specifically banning online, you know, and for other people, it was viewed, wasn't
[00:43:39] Speaker C: that around the resident. You couldn't target any Chinese person though, isn't that. Yeah, I mean, globally, right. In theory, you can't target a Chinese person living in the uk. I thought that's how China viewed it. Right.
That was a perception of it.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, it was basically Chinese kind of citizens weren't allowed to gamble in any form.
[00:43:56] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's, but you know, but even up to recently in New Zealand, I mean, see, so you could be an operator in the UK and accept a bet from someone in, someone in New Zealand if they found you, but you couldn't advertise there. Right. And obviously now they're going through the licensing process.
So how far do you, how far could you push that? Could you communicate with them once they're playing and then if they refer on is it. I don't know, you know, and, and things like that. So I don't think the, the countries have made it particularly easy. And obviously every, every one that regulates wants to try and be a bit more regulated than the last one, which makes it almost impossible for operators to, to know what's going on. And that's when those costs obviously, you know, keep, you know, keep going up and then, you know, from my perspective, I'm more gaming than I am sports. But, you know, the US is very difficult because you've only got five, six states where you, where, where you can have gaming.
But like I said, I tend to Work more with people, obviously companies, but more with people and around helping on. On specific strategies and market entry and a little bit of M. A, a little bit of investment stuff as well. And I guess more on the due diligence side, I would say, than actually finding funds, but.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Okay, well, I've got one question to end it then. All right then, based on both IMDb and Rotten Tomato, what are Mark Wahlberg's best three movies?
[00:45:20] Speaker C: So based on that, what you're saying is you have been listening to me. You've been on Google, right? That's basically saying for the last, this is over.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Every episode goes.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: He's.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: It doesn't take long. I was typing that while Robin was talking. Don't worry, Dan.
[00:45:32] Speaker C: I can parrot back everything.
It was IMDb and they have rated
[00:45:39] Speaker B: the same three you say.
[00:45:41] Speaker C: You say highest rated. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Top three. Top three, highest rated.
[00:45:48] Speaker C: Have we mentioned any of them already
[00:45:49] Speaker B: in our earlier mentioned?
I've mentioned one. I've mentioned two, actually. And there's one we didn't mention.
[00:45:57] Speaker C: There's one he did with his family that I saw recently on. I think it might have been Amazon or something like that where he's playing a spy and his family don't know that he's a spy.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: I've seen that. Yeah. No, that's not one of them. From 2006. 97 and 2010.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: Boogie Nights is 97.
[00:46:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: That's a great film.
[00:46:16] Speaker C: Ted is one of them.
No, not him.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: The Departed.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:23] Speaker C: That's not really a Mark Wilbur film though, is it? No, no, no.
He obeys in it. Yeah.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: This is an ensemble.
[00:46:34] Speaker C: Well, I'd have done my homework if I knew I was coming on
[00:46:38] Speaker B: with talking about it. So can give you the heads up.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: What was the other year?
[00:46:43] Speaker B: 20. 2010.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: 2010.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: I mentioned it briefly in passing.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: Pinning in
[00:46:57] Speaker B: the Fighter.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, with Christian Bale. There's a good documentary actually about Mickey.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: Right. So on that note, Dan, thank you very much for joining us. You can find Dan during IGB Live at the Open Space, which is happening where?
[00:47:22] Speaker C: It's the South Galleries, which is upstairs.
2:30 on Wednesday, the 1st, for about an hour and a half, maybe a little bit less. We'll have. We'll have some chat.
It'll be interesting debate and there'll be some refreshments as well. So. Yeah, why not?
[00:47:38] Speaker A: Fantastic. And we will. You will also be able to find Mr. Ed Birkin at time that I forget for a panel.
It's like it's afternoon, isn't it? We shifted it around.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So Africa panel, 2 o' clock on Wednesday, the 1st.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Yep. As part of the Africa summit. And I will be.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: And there's an IGB talk on prediction markets and World Cup, I believe, at 2 o' clock on Thursday the 2nd.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Okay. And you can find me in Startup, the startup accelerator on 30th, doing a fireside chat with Rob DeBoff from Velo Partners.
You can find me emceeing the Africa summit on the first.
And then on the second, I will be lying down somewhere quiet and dark because I'll probably be quite tired after that. So you can find all three of us@IGV live. And if you see us, do come and say hello.
And we will see you in the next one. Thank you for listening.
[00:48:51] Speaker B: Will this be out before RGB Live? Is this pointless thing? Yeah.
Okay.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: All right, on that note, bye, everyone.
