Episode 29: Is the slot market ready for Big Daddy energy?

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Happy 2026. This is, of course, right to the source. My name is Robin Harrison and I'm here as ever, with the. Give me a minute with this. The guy Manuel Diomem Cristo to my Thomas Bangalter. Mr. Ed Birkin. How are you, Ed? [00:00:34] Speaker B: I'm good, thank you. I was going to try and blag it that I knew what he said. Said again, please. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Guy Manuel Diome Cristo and Thomas Bangalter. Famous duo. [00:00:43] Speaker B: Famous duo. Guelo di Manuel. It's not counted. Monte Cristo, which is a good book, by the way. [00:00:50] Speaker A: No, they are French. [00:00:53] Speaker B: They are French. Let's go with it. You're not that cultured. I was gonna say. Are they from an operetta? [00:01:00] Speaker A: They are musical. [00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Is it like Bonnie and Cher? [00:01:05] Speaker A: Bonnie and Cher then. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Is that not the right thing? [00:01:07] Speaker A: Is it not Bonnie and Cher? I've already heard Sonny and Cher. No, French music duo. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Think Helmets. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Helmets, yeah. Daft Punk. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yes. Okay, I thought. That's quite a good one. [00:01:22] Speaker B: I didn't realize anyone knew their names. [00:01:24] Speaker A: I had to look them up and then check the pronunciation. I'm not gonna lie. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Okay. I thought it was like Banksy, where you're not meant to know who it is. Which incidentally. Right, okay. Just because people think it's cool. Is it really? You know, it's still graffiti, isn't it? Does he get permission to paint stuff? Because he didn't used to. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's a lot of great graffiti art, you know, Basquiat. [00:01:46] Speaker B: At the end of the day, if someone came in and spray painted some shit on my house, I'd be livid. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Not if it increases value of your property. [00:01:54] Speaker B: I wouldn't get rid of it. I don't want that shit. And I don't want someone holding a balloon or whatever on the side of my house. [00:02:00] Speaker A: You could sell it for millions. [00:02:01] Speaker B: I don't want to. I like my house as it is just painted weatherboard and render. Not with some balloon on that some guy did because someone decided it's trendy now. Have you seen the Simpsons episode where he. Where he tries to make the barbecue and it goes in concrete and stuff and then he's dragging it to the ear. It's just all that shit. Anyway, maybe I'm not cultured enough. Who knows? [00:02:22] Speaker A: I don't think Banksy is operating in the farmlands of Essex, as far as I'm aware. So I think you're safe. Okay. [00:02:30] Speaker B: When I went to the Louvre, I did buy the Kids Guide to the Louvre. I was early 20s at the time. There's actually. It was pitched to the right level. I did enjoy that. The Mona Lisa. Little bit dull, if I'm honest. That's rubbish. [00:02:40] Speaker A: There's the. [00:02:41] Speaker B: But behind it, I think, was the Last Supper. Like, huge, colorful. Oh, that was brilliant. They did that for ages because there's so much that you can look at. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's great. And the winged Vector 3 statue sat the top of the stairs with the big wings, no head, but it's still really cool. But anyway, this is nothing to do with gambling or data because we are back for another year to talk more data, to top more industry developments and also to have more guests. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Robin, give me a statistic. What number episode is this? [00:03:12] Speaker A: This is number 29. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Okay. And so someone. I had dinner with someone and they said. They said, oh, yeah, I've listened to your podcast, but it was quite hard to find, they said, because I searched your name and it's not related to it. So I said, oh, it's done by somebody else. So he was saying that, you know, he thinks the reason our listening figures are lower than they should be with such gold is because, you know, you haven't tagged me as part of it. So I think you need to sort out. [00:03:41] Speaker A: We definitely tagged you as part of it. And you look it up. [00:03:44] Speaker B: He needs to buy gaming business, not, you know, Ed Birkin. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Anyway, this is an IGB podcast, but as I said earlier, before you so rudely interrupted me, guests. And this one. Yeah, yeah, let's get some right now. [00:04:00] Speaker B: All right. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're in this episode. We're going to be talking slots. We're going to be talking with a pair of veterans from the industry. And I am delighted to welcome Erland Helstrom, CEO and Simon Hammond, founder of Big Daddy Gaming. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Well, we're doing a very warm. How do we warm. [00:04:18] Speaker C: Are you going to. What do you do? [00:04:19] Speaker B: Clap is a warm welcome. [00:04:20] Speaker C: What do you do? Clap works. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Is that warm? [00:04:24] Speaker D: You didn't. [00:04:24] Speaker C: You didn't. [00:04:25] Speaker B: You didn't seem very warm. Robin, standing ovation. [00:04:27] Speaker C: Standing ovation works as well, if you like. Red carpets is fine. Thank you. [00:04:32] Speaker A: I've been doing a lot of clapping over the holidays because my daughter is very into clapping. But guys, welcome. It's great to have you on here and it feels quite timely because obviously last year you brought Big Daddy Gaming to market and now it's coming at an interesting point. Like, you look at the slot space, there are so many games coming to market each month. And when you announced you know, the formation of Big Daddy Gaming, I mean it was almost, it felt like there was a bit of an indictment of the state of that market in there. So to kick off, tell us more about that. I mean like looking at that market, looking at everything that's out there, what's kind of prompted you guys to think, right, fine, they can't do it, we're going to do it ourselves, kick off. [00:05:18] Speaker C: A little bit and sort of where Big Daddy came from a bit. So I've been involved in the gaming business, especially the supplier side for best part of 20 years. Right. So. And I've worked for some familiar names. I've been around the aggregator side of things as well. So seeing a lot of different studios, operations and you rightly said that the market is heavily saturated, there's hundreds of suppliers on the market, it seems like you blink and there's another three studios announced this week. So why launch Big Daddy? And I think just to point out, it's not something that was just launched at the end of last year, although we went public, it's been in the works for a good solid year. Behind that, a lot of behind the scenes sort of development and thinking and where is the market really at? Right. Is there room for another supplier on the market and what do you bring to the table? I would say Big Daddy is different because we bring a sort of cohesive viewpoint to where the market's at. I'm very operator driven and player driven. I think there's so many suppliers that come and launch and think, oh, just build a few games and we'll launch it on aggregator A, B or C and we'll make our fortunes from there. The reality is very different. It's a very competitive landscape. Raiders are flooded with content. They want content that's going to resonate with the players, have a strong brand identity, but also have a very strong commercial proposition. And we feel that with our experience, the people on board with the team and what we can offer, the operator and the player is unique and can stand out and cut through the noise. So hence Big Daddy. And we are already getting a lot of attention already and we're very proud of what's happened so far, but also excited for what's coming. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:59] Speaker D: Just to add that as well, Simon said, I think it's important and when I joined the project as well, Right. It's about the whole company, the strategy behind it and it's not only about the games. Games are, don't get me wrong, it's the most important part of it. Right. But it's about trying to make a something different, you know, something more easier, more agile and also accessible to the operators as well as the players. And so just to talk about the games, I think ongoing from now and I think many years ahead is wrong. It's all about, you know, the whole setup, the whole offering as a company, including commercials, of course, also the relationship with, with the partners, the clients. And I think that's the thing that a lot of things had that strong grip many years ago, but maybe got lost a bit. Right. So we're trying to also take back, you know, the good parts of the history of slots and slots company perspective, and then utilize both the experience and also the possibilities we have as a new slots provider on the market. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Okay, and then what's the, what's the industry reaction been? Because you mentioned that that kind of relationship between the studios and the operators, something's been lost in that. I mean, like, do you feel that whatever's been lost has kind of like changed the way that the two, these two bodies interact and like, how are they reacting to the, you know, the idea of kind of bringing it back? This kind of, I don't know, would you call it like a closer relationship or more like open lines of communication? I mean, like what, what, what is it that's missing? [00:08:31] Speaker C: And I think relationship is one thing. [00:08:33] Speaker D: Right. Sorry, Simon is one thing, but I think it's about, you know, the brand identity as well. Right. Talk to many clients, it's about, you know, when you talk about Big Daddy, you have a smile on your face. When you see the lo screen, you get a smile on the face. And that's going to reflect both from an operator perspective, but also from a player perspective. And then it's about, you know, we're in times as well. A lot of operators are struggling in that sense. Higher taxes, stuff like that. I think our commercial offering, which we bring to the market, which is, I would say industry low, helps as well. The operators really think that, okay, these guys have actually thought things through and together as partners, you know, we can have a good prosperous future together. And the more they, we bring good games and the more they invest in us, the more we can also save in that sense. [00:09:19] Speaker C: I think just to compound that we had, even though we've only been, let's say, commercially live or sort of aware on the market from back end of October, early November, industry response has been fantastic. I mean, I think we've already been earmarked to be like, what's Big Daddy going to do this year, which is great, you know, and that's off the body of, I think, a lot of experience that's on the table and people know who we are and trust that we worked on pretty good productions and companies in the past. So people know what our heritage or history is. So that buys a lot. But secondly, it's also the operator. Feedback and interest is exceptionally high already. I mean, we just announced this morning on a pr. Come on, deal done. And we've got a few in the pipe. Right. So it's going to be a lot of noise coming out in the coming weeks. So we're, we're exceptionally humble but also excited about the operator and also player feedback. And I think there's a lot of pressure as well that is put on us to deliver on that. Yeah, it's been overwhelming, I would say, the general feedback on Big Daddy and people love the name, love the brand, like, know what we've done in the past and like what we've got to say. So I think that all builds for an exciting 26. [00:10:30] Speaker A: I mean, for anyone that's been living under a rock, I mean, it's. I think it's worth kind of talking about some of the greatest hits, you know, for people, as I say, have been living under a rock, like Ed here. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Well, I'm just interested in where the name comes from. I mean, I think we seem to have skipped that bit. That's how I would have started the interview. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for the critique, Ed. Sorry, Simon. [00:10:51] Speaker C: Well, let's start there. Where did the name come from? So the name came about two years ago, actually, and we were saying, you know, what is the state of the industry? What's the gap? And I remember years ago where operators and players were so excited about the latest launch of supplier, Right. And that kind of positivity and excitement and push. Yeah, that's been lost. And you want to bring that back. Yeah, we were talking about, you know, the operator and the player, that they're the daddy here. You know, it's not the supplier. It's not. Look at me and look at what we're doing. They're the daddy. We're like, well, hang about Big Daddy. And then we started to think, but let's give that guy a character, right? Let's. Let's make him alive. Let's make Big Daddy somebody that an operator. And the player goes, that's my friend, that's my buddy. He's. He's going to add to my playing experience that of formulated into to Big Daddy, one of our Key taglines is let's go. Because for us it's, you know, let's go. The players love it. Let's go. Let's, you know, let's have a great experience, let's do a deal, Let, let's go. So let's go is very behind also the big daddy DNA in that sense. So I would say it's both, both, both of those. That's, that's where it was born from. It's recognizing who's the daddy in the player and operator journey, but also the positivity about let's go, let's get a big win. Let's, let's do a deal, let's, let's make it a win, win for all. [00:12:09] Speaker A: And then just going back to the kind of like previous hits because as I say, I think it's good to kind of like list some of these because there's some incredible titles in here. [00:12:16] Speaker C: I've launched hundreds of games over the years. Some, some I'm exceptionally proud of, some perhaps not so proud of as is the nature of a roadmap. But one of my first launches as CPO of Neta way, way back when was actually Starburst. That was actually my second game as CPO back in the day, which I think most people know. I've done a lot of branded titles, so your Guns N Roses, your Planet of the Apes and all those types of things, you know, I was behind and then more recently very proud when we did sort of the games like Temple Tumble and the Money Train series at Relax. So too many titles to mention, but a couple there that really probably stick out in the player consciousness from a slot perspective. [00:12:54] Speaker A: And then for you, Ireland, I mean, let's talk a bit about your background because you mentioned, you know, it's like you have experience in like live casinos. So like talk to me about where you've kind of like come from. [00:13:05] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. The only other company in the industry I work for is Evolution, which I started back in 2017 primarily was just initially Live Casino. Then due to acquisition with Net and Red Tiger, Big Time Gaming and no Limit City as well, they brought the full portfolio. And as I said, I think primarily shorts of commercials done for Europe like the uk, Spain, Netherlands and Sweden. So central Europe in that sense. So been on the hypergrowth with evolution since 2020, 2017, then also during COVID but everything just exploded. But also then understanding the changes that happened during post Covid there new regulations and also that affected operators quite a lot. You know, they had to change everything from investing so much more responsible gaming taxes was. And trying to understand how the new landscape in Europe especially was forming and the challenges they had and still have. [00:14:07] Speaker A: It's an interesting point you bring up there just about the tightening regulations because that's obviously, let's face it, a lot of the time in Europe that feels like it's targeting slots, if that's through kind of state limits or the under the hood controls we've seen. So, I mean, how do you feel that is ultimately going to shape the online casino proposition going forward? Because you could argue that after, you know, a decade of just basically cramming every possible game in there, people are going like operators are potentially going to be a bit more selective and a bit more led by, you know, what the players are playing. So you mentioned earlier as well, you know, in commercial terms, you're looking to be a bit more reasonable than some of the competition out there. But I mean, how's that playing into your thinking? [00:14:54] Speaker D: I would say we're coming into a certain time now with Big Daddy Gaming, which is spot on. And what I mean about that, commercials is one thing, right? But games and the quality of the games is the most important thing because the player needs to like your games, right. And want to continue playing them. We always say that. I mean the product and the commercials go hand in hand because we with our partners, the operators together with the players, that's exactly like Simon Mansion, the Big Daddy. We need to be able to offer quality games at a low and very reasonable price. And also for the operators to feel that they can continue investing in Big Daddy games and feel that that also helps them from a financial perspective. But at the end of the day, the quality and also the excitement of the games which Big Daddy brings, that is exactly what we're going to deliver. And I think now starting up now, okay, maybe more publicly end of last year, but it's been ongoing for quite a long time. I think we're exactly at the right spot at the right time now here, especially when things are happening from a regulatory perspective in Europe as well. To help and for us coming in with no legacy and to position ourselves as a strong contender as a slots provider, we trust. [00:16:05] Speaker B: Some interesting questions now, Robin, go on, man. [00:16:08] Speaker C: I was enjoying those, but yeah, okay. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Now we can carry on with Robin. [00:16:12] Speaker A: No. [00:16:12] Speaker B: So we had, we haven't had many guests. We find we prefer to bicker between ourselves most of the time. Slash. Robin's roller deck isn't as good as he likes to claim, but one of them was Mark Flores. Martin from Xgenia. And I thought he was very good, but he was saying that his product, correct me if I'm wrong, Robin, effectively allowed you to build your own slot game within minutes. And almost. And he said he's not trying to, he wasn't putting it as a death knoll for the studios. He was almost saying, you know, it makes your life easier, but you could quite easily see how it was being pitched that, you know, you wouldn't have to go through, you know, a dedicated developer. Do you, do you, do you view AI as like a huge benefit to you, or do you view it as. I know you're not going to say it's a massive threat and no one should use our games to build their own, but is it something that is genuinely a case of you have a flutter which has, you know, shitloads of money and they could quite easily just start developing thousands of games just like that, or is it that too simplistic? [00:17:10] Speaker C: That's a big question. So first of all, I was saying. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Thank you, Robin. Robin, just take note. [00:17:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:17:15] Speaker C: From a product perspective, right. I've been, I've always been an advocate of quality over quantity wherever I've been. So I always believe that strong quality will always outshine quantity. Now, you see a lot of studios out there pumping out, you know, 10, 15 games a month, but let's be frank, most operators don't care about it and most titles are unmemorable. So I don't think the volume proposition is of any great interest to an operator these days, not when they have hundreds of games per month to potentially launch. So just because you can build faster and build more doesn't make it better from an operator desire or a player want. The second part is from a product development point. Of course, you'd be silly not to be leveraging the tools and the benefits of AI. It can dramatically help some elements from a quality assurance point, from a conceptual point, so on and so forth. But does it replace the artistic skill, the animation skill, the attention? Not yet. And I think anybody who says so is building cheap product that really hasn't got the attention to detail. It is a tool to assist, it's not a tool to replace yet, in my opinion, and I think there is a lot to be said for the artistic nature and skill and production value that teams and developers bring. As for the. The. You could just make a game in a few hours. Great, launch it then and see how it does, in my opinion, because at the end of the day, to make a good game requires more than just, you know, A plus B. It requires a feel, it requires a touch, it requires experience, it requires the emotion. All these elements that you need to bring into a production. You can't just simulate that by putting in parameter A, B and C. Yeah, you can for a cheap marketing quick push or a quick, you know, branded retitle of X, Y and Z. Sure. But it's not going to create an engaging player experience or the next classic title that's going to last the test of time. In my opinion, it's Formalay productions don't last and they don't get operators and players excited. So I still think quality, the human production, the human emotion, the human experience is essential, albeit complemented with AI skill sets and toolkits. [00:19:27] Speaker B: And can I just quickly talk about rtp? I know that you know the, the average, let's say, I assume RTP, let's say it's around 90, 96, 97, something like that. Obviously in the likes of Germany, if you have a 5% turnover, then it's going to be lower. I think it's around 88, 87. But interestingly there some operators are choosing to take the tax separately and return to a higher RTP because they believe even though the player is kind of playing this costing them the same amount, it becomes more enjoyable for the player. Now, I know that in the UK there's a couple of operators talking about reducing the RTP significantly with the new taxes coming in. So I suppose two for one, whose choice is that? Can you say large games, you know, are this RTP or it needs to be, and two, if, if it is changed by the operator itself, do you think it does materially change the enjoyment or the game experience? [00:20:25] Speaker C: Big question. Again, I would say that this, this discussion has evolved heavily over the last five, six years. So first of all, it's always the operator choice. They know their business, they know their market and as a supplier, you have to offer variable RTP choice for them to take. If they want a 94 or a 96, that's really up to them. If they conversely want a 92, that's also up to them. You're absolutely right. There's a lot of discussion in the UK market specifically now with the gaming tax propositional increase come April of 40% and RTP is firmly on the table with most of those UK operators flirting with the 92 option. Actually, as to whether that creates a better player enjoyment is also quite a big question. I've always been quite an advocate of higher RTP games, higher player, lifetime value and enjoyment and return to the product. I think you have more mathematical creative freedom with a higher RTP ultimately as well. That said, that needs to be married with the right positional push. Right. Because you need to. That worked five, 10 years ago when your game was in a top spot, you know, new launch game for best part 2, 3 weeks a player would experience come back and it would have a much higher lifetime value or return to touch after a first launch. So if a game is not pushed and it's just washed out after a day or two, then ultimately a higher RTP is not. It's going to counterproductive to some, to some respects. So I think if you've got a higher RTP game with a good push and you allow players to really enjoy it and get that full RTP experience. Absolutely. But ultimately if that's not part of the operator strategy, they that doesn't necessarily translate to a better player experience if the lifetime of that game is shorter. Long story short, I believe that a higher RTP from a player perspective is always better. But the economics and the product visibility player and the license regimes play a big part in operator choice. And as a supplier we have to operate, have to offer that choice for the market. [00:22:25] Speaker B: I mean it surprised me a bit because okay, the tax on in the UK, yes it's going up 20 to 28% fine. But that is based on GGR, so it's based on the operator win. So they are, they're effectively saying they're hoping they can take more money out of the customer's pocket. But you're saying, and I tend to agree, even though I know little about slots, that actually a higher RTP product is more enjoyable for, for the operator further for the player and therefore probably a longer lifetime value. Or conversely, if you've got a pretty poor RTP and the player seems losing money quicker, perhaps they're more likely to go to an illegal operator. So it seems kind of counterintuitive. I get it. If it was a turnover based tax and then they're going, okay, well we need to do that. But for, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to really make sense to me. [00:23:18] Speaker C: No, it's a good question. And it all depends on how you look at rtp. And RTP is judged over millions, if not billions of rounds. Right. So you have to look at the average spin cycles of a player and what RTP will they realistically expect. Spinning a slot 100, 200 times, you won't feel the difference between a 94 and a 96, it's marginal, but you will if you spin it 10, 20, 30, 40,000 times. Right. So I get where the operator is coming from is that because they have such a volume of content coming through, it doesn't serve them necessarily. It's not even felt by the player that rtp different difference. It becomes a bit of a question of theoretical enjoyment and theoretical return, if that makes any sense. And it's largely based upon how many rounds do you base that RTP over? What is the variance of those of those that RTP experience and what does the player typically look like from an operator perspective? It's quite a theoretical exercise to look at it. But ultimately yes. I mean a lower RTP in theory means higher profit. That's because there's so many games they can throw throw at. At the. At the player. But longer lifetime value, real player stickiness and enjoyment. Actually a higher RTP product will pay the player more and will keep them coming back and have better winning experiences. It's a content volume over positioning question and then theoretical maths thrown into the mix. So the short. It's a quite complex viewpoint to be honest. Depending on which side you of the fence you sit on and. [00:24:49] Speaker B: And then it's probably more. More difficult. Maybe it's not difficult, maybe it's easy for you to answer. But talk see people moving to a legal size. Something I've been discussing, well, I think we discussed with Robin on the podcast, but also speaking to someone else about yesterday is this idea that you can't really stop players going to offshore sites, but you need to make them less attractive. And one way of making them less attractive is by them not having as good a content. And bear in mind that puts numbers out here slots globally, we think they're $58 billion market, 75% of all I casino. You know, we've had a few years of evolution and people saying, you know, live casinos, the future. But slots continue to keep taking share and doing well. So not having slot content from suppliers on unregulated sites. Now an argument that some suppliers make is, well, it's done through aggregators and therefore, you know, we didn't know it was on that site. Do you think that suppliers such as yourselves should be held responsible for where your content is going or effectively once it's in the aggregator's hand, it's kind of out of your control. [00:25:49] Speaker C: I mean we, we have B2B licensing responsibilities as much as a B2C depending on the jurisdiction. You know, if you're licensed as a B2B in a certain market, then you take on the obligations of that market, you know, I mean, and that often means not supplying illegal operators and you'll be fined, held to account. So you know, depends on the market. But ultimately you are held to a high, high level of account if you're licensed as a B. As for player migration, yes, I get the argument that delimiting content choice is one thing, but the other issue there is also what promotions can the operator do if they have marketing restrictions and tax restrictions that doesn't allow them to do welcome bonuses or redeposit bonuses. That's more of an attraction, I would say, rather than content choice. Pure marketing differential between unlicensed and the licensed one because a base economics. So it's a long winded way of saying we act responsibly as according to our licenses, no matter where they are. And if there's restrictions, of course we're due to them. You know, that's, you can't, you shouldn't go into a regulated market without that in mind. Right. But of course, you know, it's, it's a tough landscape as well. If there's markets where are, you aren't necessarily enforcing on a B2B or doing certain things, then of course you go with the general licensing to get the broadest reach. But I would say this is more of an operator question than a supplier question to some degree. [00:27:14] Speaker B: But, but you can control where your content goes through aggregators? [00:27:18] Speaker C: Well, it depends on the technical setup. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends. Ultimately you as a supplier, you only see what you're past. There's only so much policing you can do ultimately. If you don't see countries coming through as a country code or a jurisdiction, then you can only see what's presented in front of you. You only have so much visibility there. Of course you can do as many audits as you can. You try and look at the, the brands, the white lab, what's happening, but we only have visibility of what's in front of us ultimately. So yes, depends on the technical infrastructure and the integration level with that aggregator. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Okay, so this is an interesting point to press on a bit more because it's something that's come up a lot, you know, level of visibility that, that studios actually have over where their game goes. And I'll, I'll be honest, personally I've been almost dubious as to whether that's actually true. Like people actually wouldn't know where their game is being. You know, played it from what you're saying, it does sound like that. Visibility is actually quite poor when it comes to, you know, I mean, maybe not all aggregators, but certain aggregators. [00:28:27] Speaker C: It depends on the integration, right? Like you obviously not to go into the nuts and bolts of how APIs look and what you'll pass as data fields, but ultimately as a supplier, you're not customer facing, right? You're not taking the deposits, you're. And if an operator doesn't pass you certain jurisdiction codes or certain country codes, or very rarely do you get past ip because that could have all kinds of data protection kind of stuff that. And player identifier stuff that you could be aware of, right? So it depends on, it's a fluffy answer, but it depends on the integration and what your past and what visibility do you actually have. Of course, that's not the only metric, right? You obviously do your audits and you're trying to track where your, where your games are visible and playable and you want to see what kind of white labels and what kind of brands and all this kind of stuff. So you try and do those and you obviously complement that with restricted territory lists and legal means. But not every, not everyone passes you everything that may or may not be required maybe because their own systems don't have it. So I'm not saying it's verbatim for all, but it can be the case. [00:29:30] Speaker A: And then what's your approach to working with aggregators? Because I think you've got to deal with live ata, but obviously you've got like the direct integration with a. Come on. So is there, looking forward, do you see it as more of that direct relationship with the individual operators and then complementing that in a few places with aggregation partnerships. [00:29:52] Speaker C: So our preferred method is always direct, right? Because we want to have the direct relationship with the customer. And also our commercial model, as Earland alluded to, is very direct friendly in that sense. And then you talk about aggregation. There's all different levels of aggregation, right? There's B2B aggregation, your light and wonders and your relaxers. And then you have, let's say more B2C aggregators, although they're classified as B2B like Hub88stas, you know, the soft Swiss, these types of guys. So naturally they also support, you know, a lot of, lot of brands, a lot of distribution. Of course we want to, you know, we partner with those guys because they reach a broader brand distribution and recognition than we could maybe do direct. But our commercials and our business model doesn't necessarily lend itself to the traditional content. B2B providers, as I just mentioned before, so direct is always preferred. But of course, you know, some of. Some of massive brands are connected to some of these aggregators. We're talking some tier one brands, you know, use those aggregators for certain markets or platform or tech, you know, it's. You have to use them if you want to reach some of the tier ones as well. [00:31:03] Speaker B: Erland, am I right in saying that you were primarily on the commercial side of Evolution? [00:31:08] Speaker D: That's correct. Just basically from the first day I started the evolution back in 2017. [00:31:14] Speaker B: And so, I mean, Evolution is how to put this is a big fish in a pond of not many big competitors really. So I imagine there's certain markets in particular where you're pretty much in control of the conversation almost with some of the suppliers. So some of the operators maybe at some point. How different if you find it moving into the slots market where perhaps the operator has more power, if that makes sense. Has it been a big shift or is. Am I making up those dynamics? [00:31:42] Speaker D: No, I mean, at Evolution, initially it was live casino, but I spent many years as well on the slot side, both with Net and Red Tiger and the other brands as well. So of course it's very different. And it's nothing you can take for granted and treat the same. It's very different. I mean, slots is highly compatible. It's almost become a commodity in that sense. We discussed that early as well. So I think the whole part there, which many, I would say slots providers have these huge ones, of course, they have their flagship games and year after year they perform. You have a lot of smaller studios trying to come in and get some traction. At the same time, they're all fighting for those nine tabs, you know, on the mobile phone, to get some exposure. How do you solve that? And I think me coming from Evolution, I saw a giant, you know, still getting more and more competition from other slot providers. And how do you tackle that? And I think what I see Big Daddy at right now, we're coming in with no legacy with our experience. I mean, from Simon's perspective, me from Evolution, thinking about how can we do things different. And of course, when you're at the big Giant, it's very hard to make huge changes. But I think that's exactly what we tried to bring in now to Big Daddy when it comes to not only the games, right. Like I told you, it's the whole thing that you see The Sloth Industry 2026, which includes, you know, highly competitive commercial, doing it in a different way. And at the same time also utilizing those important parts that maybe has been neglected in the past. And that comes down to the branding relationship and so on, so forth, because they all stick together and we need to provide what the operators need. And that's not only games, because games there are plenty of. It's the whole package. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Interesting. It's almost as if, you know, the kind of like the account management piece becomes as much of the core strategy as the product proposition would say at. [00:33:38] Speaker D: The bottom, you know, the most important part is the product. It will always be there. But when you talk about competition, we're only talking about competition with the products, right? Not the other parts of it. And what we're saying is to hold everything that we need to really compete with. And we see that we have advantages now coming into the market at this point, which for the bigger ones, maybe it's hard to adjust and for the smaller ones maybe to keep up with. But at the core, it's always the product, the core the product needs to perform. And there I feel really confident with what we have and will offer. [00:34:11] Speaker A: We're just coming up on time. But I'm conscious of the fact we've not really talked about the products themselves just in market yet. But I mean, can you give us a bit of an inkling of what to expect? Like, how are things going to look and feel? Do you feel it's going to be something totally different? Do you feel it's. It's going to be just a more refined take on what we have now and what's coming? [00:34:35] Speaker C: I think what we're focusing on is familiar style mechanics, not to shock the player, but with the Big Daddy twist, right? What is the Big Daddy twist? What is the Big Daddy DNA? And it's about hitting features more frequently, bigger wins more frequently. It's about design style with a familiar Daddy DNA in terms of graphics, high focus on anticipation and excitement. So I would say it's the familiar panically, but with a real Big Daddy twist. And that also comes with some of our side bet features and our extra betting features, but also ties down to just the daddy look and feel of the games. We want all players to know what a daddy game looks like, feels like, and they know what to expect. But also I think we look at the Daddy DNA being sort of a real strong resonator amongst all our games, you know, so fundamentally we want all players to, to feel happy when they're playing a Big Daddy game. You get that little smile on the face when they see the theme. It's not Gratuitous. It's not over the top, but it gives you a little rise, smile. It's a little bit satirical, but it's familiar. But it's also better. It's also different, it's more fast paced. So is it going to be hyper innovative, never seen before? No. But is it going to have a distinct Daddy DNA? Absolutely. And that's what we feel that players will over time come to love, enjoy and make it a firm favorite. To return to classic. [00:36:03] Speaker B: A quick numbers question please. So I just had a quick Google or ChatGPT, most popular online slots of all time and obviously there's no definitive answer, but it came up with Starburst and it said that, I think Netenter said in two and a half years had over 18 billion spins, blah blah, blah. Do you think it's plausible that a game like that could have made over a billion of GGR by now and kind of game make supply literally hundreds of millions of dollars when you get a, when you get the game, is that the kind of scale of the prize we're talking about? [00:36:32] Speaker C: So my quick fire answer that is no, because the market has shifted and you look at Starbucks and go, is it a great game? Honestly, not really. It's, it's a good game, it's a good game flow, but financially super successful. But what is the. What is the key question you have to ask yourself is the timing of that launch. Timing of that launch. It was on the cusp of free spin marketing and it was the cheapest game in the industry to market. So that's why it was included in everyone's welcome bonuses and was front and center visible and at a time where there wasn't much content launched. So those, those market dynamics don't exist anymore. Will a top title. Is it possible to launch a top title? Is another question. The answer is absolutely yes. You know, they're few and far between, but if you get the right magic, the right source, the right maths, right theme, there's still lots of titles that are being launched that are super successful. The Money Train series is a good example. Recent launch, launch was one of the biggest launches, if not the biggest launches of recent years. So it's definitely possible to have a breakthrough product. But are you asking me do the dynamics exist where a Starburst can launch or be as successful? My answer to that is no, because I think the market has shifted dramatically since that point. But it's also why we've approaching Big Daddy in the way we are. Right, because we believe that commercial market timing product proposition, things they all need to tie together to increase the chances of having a successful product and partnership with the operator that also stimulates the player enjoyment. So you can't just look at product only. You've got to look at the total value proposition to all concerned. Otherwise you won't have that breakthrough product. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Cool. On that note, Simon Erlen, thank you very much for joining us on right to the Source. It's been great to have you. [00:38:16] Speaker C: Thank you so much. [00:38:17] Speaker D: Pleasure. [00:38:17] Speaker C: Thank you so much. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Will you guys both be roaming the show Flora ICE in a few weeks time? [00:38:22] Speaker C: Roaming, hunting, signing up new daddy partners, of course. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent. Well, we will see you there. And this has been episode 29 accounted before this head of Right to the Source. It's great to be back for 2026 and we will be back next year. Next. Next year. Bloody hell. Next week when we're going to talk some industry predictions ahead of ice, which I will then frantically edit and rush it out just for the show. [00:38:52] Speaker C: Sounds great. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Thanks everyone. [00:38:54] Speaker C: Thanks, guys. [00:38:55] Speaker D: Thank you. Bye.