Episode 22: IBIA’s Khalid Ali on sports betting integrity and who cares about M&A?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Right to the Source. My name is Robin Harrison and I'm here as ever with the wily, cute coyote to my roadrunner, Mr. Ed Birkin. And Ed, how are you today? [00:00:29] Speaker B: I'm good, thanks. Robin, for a moment there I thought you'd given me a compliment. But no Roadrunner just gets away with it. And Wiley Coat is the idiot who can't kill him, Capture him. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Well, I mean, like the, the, you know, kind of like the killing isn't implied. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Yes. You know, it's actually looked up. I don't know why. A few years ago. Acme is an actual big business. Yeah, you know that. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Is that why they used it? [00:00:55] Speaker B: I don't know, but I just assumed. It's like a made up thing. [00:00:57] Speaker A: But I'm pretty sure that is a thing for animals to kill other animals. [00:01:01] Speaker B: ACME Corporation, it's a fictional corporation. Okay, so ACME Market here, Acme Markets Inc's a supermarket chain, but maybe ACME Corporation, that is. Okay, so everything that I just said is completely. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Wrong. [00:01:22] Speaker A: You know that a lot of stuff on TV isn't actually happening. Are you aware that Jurassic park is not a documentary? [00:01:29] Speaker B: I know that. However I do, it does make me wonder. And the answer is obviously no. But like, could that be real? As in, could they do that? Like, surely there would be just some genetic sequencing in. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Well, I mean, they cloned a sheep in Scotland. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah, but they had a sheep there to start with. I don't think they've just got T. Rex just chilling out to clone. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Well, I remember, bizarrely, when Nicholas Cage was, I think it was, he was in some financial difficulty. One of the things that he sold was a T. Rex skull. And I'm pretty sure it was like several million. But bizarrely, I'm pretty sure that Leonardo DiCaprio bought it. So if the fossils themselves were in private hands, you would imagine that a small insect that drank a dinosaur's blood encased in amber could well be in private hands. [00:02:21] Speaker B: You are also talking crap just like I was Nicholas Cage. I mean, first of all, both in terms of anything. He bought a dinosaur skull, which wasn't a T. Rex, one Tarbosaurus batar. He bought it for $276,000, Beverly Hills Gallery and reportedly outbid Leonardo DiCaprio for it. But he then voluntarily returned it to US authorities for repatriation to Mongolia after discovering it had been illegally smuggled. There is no way that after the Rock Con Air and all his other amazing films that Nicholas Cage is in financial trouble. But apart from the dinosaur, the fact that he sold it, Hutu and the amount of money and he was in financial difficulty, that was a correct story. Well done. That level of investigative journalism is what we expect. [00:03:10] Speaker A: So it's going to be a bit of an extended episode today because in the second half we're going to bring in a really interesting guest, Khalid Ali, CEO of iber. So we're going to talk to Khaled about. Well, a number of things. I mean, obviously I think the starting point has got to be what's going on with the NBA and the FBI investigations. I mean, obviously, as probably the biggest and most prominent advocacy group for Sports Integrity. Definitely good to talk about that. But also they've had a special partner. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Of H2 as well. Do you know that? [00:03:45] Speaker A: Official partner of H2? [00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:47] Speaker A: Whether are you an official partner of them? [00:03:49] Speaker B: No, we're not an official partner. I don't know. They really should be. But you know, they're a. As you say, they're the leading integrity association and they want the leading data, so it kind of makes sense. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Excellent. Yeah. The most trusted data and intelligence on the global gaming industry. I understand. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Global gambling industry. Sorry. But yes, before that, last week we promised you we would talk about OPAP and Uganda and so we're not going to talk about that. Yeah, we lied. [00:04:18] Speaker B: Talking about. Talking about things. Sorry, I'm going to interject with something. I've got a couple of questions for you, a little quiz. Yeah. Okay. So I was doing some work on Sunday trying to. And I went down a little bit rabbit hole of watching podcasts on YouTube. So anyway, so I then did a. Found a couple of things. First of all, some comments and also I did a bit of analysis. So 21 podcasts out so far. Yeah. Okay. Now including one that's been only out for one day. [00:04:48] Speaker A: Which you didn't know about earlier on today. [00:04:50] Speaker B: No. How many views on YouTube in total do you think they've had? Now bear in mind, YouTube is probably the least used medium for podcasts. [00:04:59] Speaker A: Improbably about 43. [00:05:02] Speaker B: What average or total? 1210. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Wow. [00:05:08] Speaker B: And the one that was done with the best. What's the one that's been done the most professionally? All the best. Set up everything. [00:05:16] Speaker A: The first one we did. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker A: When we didn't. When to be fair to us, we didn't know what we were doing. I just come off an overnight flight. [00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah. But people who start watching it don't know that. But that is like the most professionally set up. And that was Our lowest of 19 views. [00:05:33] Speaker A: To be fair, I think anyone watching that podcast could very much tell that we didn't know what we were doing. [00:05:40] Speaker B: And the one with the most views, which is 102 something in Africa. Yeah, Assessing the African opportunity. And I think around that time we said we were going to get a guest on to talk about Africa and that was episode five. So we do need to do that. [00:05:53] Speaker A: But yep, we will do that at some point. [00:05:55] Speaker B: Three comments. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Three comments. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to read through them. First one was on the crypto one. Thanks for the forecast. Could you help me with something unrelated? My okX wallet holds some USDT and I have the seed phrase through SA. Could you explain how to move them to Binance? [00:06:16] Speaker A: Well, could you? [00:06:17] Speaker B: I mean, first of all, you shouldn't give your phrase out and yeah, someone. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Might read it out on a podcast. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Well, it's on YouTube. [00:06:27] Speaker A: I mean, is that doxing someone? Is that what doxing is or is that when it's your address doxing? It's. I think it's when someone gives you your. Gives out an address or personal details online. And I'm probably going to beep that key phrase. I think it adds an element of misty because if you've said something that you can't see. And also I want to see if Riverside has a beep feature. So can you tell them how to move it into Binance? [00:06:53] Speaker B: No, I sold some crypto once and I had to get a friend to come over and do it. [00:07:00] Speaker A: We should probably talk about something sensible. [00:07:03] Speaker C: No, hang on. [00:07:03] Speaker B: We are. No, hang on. I've got the second one. Second one. Hang on. This may. This may put some music on. Hang on. Right, this is from The Yanis I Falakis 8146. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Belgium. Belgium. Gaming one. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:23] Speaker B: So I think we must have been talking about the languages. He said French and Flemish is sufficient. German is under 1% and he put a smiley face. Also adding Smurfs to Tintin. Always really enjoying your podcasts. One of your. Hopefully not just 12 listeners. Keep them coming, Anis. Thank you. Thank you, Yannis. I think we have more than 12 otherwise watching 100 times. No. [00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah, good. [00:07:47] Speaker B: I like that one. [00:07:48] Speaker A: We've got a fan. I think we should make every week. We'll give a little thanks to Yanis for watching. [00:07:53] Speaker B: And then we have one more. Yeah, that was on the France episode four. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Was that the one where we just talked about where we'd been? [00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think pretty. Pretty much. I can't find. I can't find it. Now to tell you who it was, but it says, impressive how Winamax is totally under your radar. Despite they are rocking the online French market. They also invented the product spin and go. Real name is Espresso. Before every competitors copy it. When they say impressive how Winamax is totally under your radar. I'm not sure they say that in a positive impressive way. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Was that from Winnemark? [00:08:30] Speaker B: I can't find. Oh, hang on, here we go. I can tell you in a sec it was first at Vincent Reynard. N A E R T. Okay, well. [00:08:40] Speaker A: Well, Vincent, we can assure you that Winamax is not under our radar. If you've listened to the podcast, you can tell that there is a total lack of preparation and purely an oversight by us. [00:08:52] Speaker B: But he's got to give him a shout out. He seems to got poker chip next to his name saying VR gambling though. There you go. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Talk into the microphone. I can't hear you when you don't talk. [00:09:02] Speaker B: He seems to have a poker chip next to his name saying VR gambling consulting. So. Okay, there you go. Well, speaking about France. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yes, speaking about France. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Comes together and we've been prepping this and we're just occasionally, when we could. [00:09:18] Speaker A: We couldn't have planned it better. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, like sometimes it just aligns. [00:09:22] Speaker A: I mean, we can't plan, but. So we genuinely couldn't have planned it better. But yes, Ed is very, very correct. We are going to. Before we bring on Khalid, we are going to talk about the week's big news, which was, of course, Banerjee Group's acquisition of Typical. [00:09:40] Speaker B: Hang on, hang on, hang on. We just need to go. Sorry, Khaled, can you just wait a bit longer? Robin and I have been talking about podcast episodes, so if you just stay in the green room for a bit. Yep, yep. Thanks. There you go. [00:09:50] Speaker A: That was terrible. [00:09:51] Speaker B: Put our guests. Put our guests off while we just talk more shit. [00:09:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So Banerjee is a quad. Typical. Banerjee, of course, owns a Becklik. It has a big presence in France, growing presence in Africa. Typical. Big in Germany and Austria. Now what few interesting bits. One of them is Betclick will divest its stake in BET at home, which I don't think is in the best financial health. That business, I think was a 53.6% stake. But I always like to needle you on this. Oh, my opening gambit with this. And we're going to try. We're going to try and be quick and concise. Is Beckley's core market is France. France has restrictions on product No, I. Casino high tax rate. Tepico's main market is Germany. Very high tax rate, very stringent restrictions in product, albeit you can offer online casino. These companies are used to working in high tax, high regulation markets. The rest of Europe is going to have to come to terms with that reality. Taxes going up. We're going to see it go up in the uk as we talked about last week, and I'm sorry to mention it again because obviously we shouldn't mention it because we talk about it too much. It's going up in the Netherlands. There's also potential for those stake limits in the uk. There's still rumblings of some kind of slot ban in the Netherlands. Just to pick out those two markets, all of Europe will have to work out how to survive in this new world order. And then with the Banerjee typical combination and with the FDJ United kindred combination, you have two very large companies with very strong presence in very difficult markets. Most likely with now an expansion disruption to the industry. Instead of coming from the gray market, where I think there's a very difficult path to regulation now, as evidenced by YOLO Group, as we talked about, so altruistically giving up its BTC operations to make that regulated market pivot. The disruption won't come from gray market innovators. It will come from established competitors with kind of current or previous monopoly positions in mature markets. [00:12:09] Speaker B: Okay. Is there a question? You should be a politician, you know. [00:12:13] Speaker A: I want you to react to it. So you're just being very. [00:12:16] Speaker B: A couple of things I would say then. First of all, Typico and Beckleyck have both done phenomenally well in their respective industries. Yeah, like nothing great businesses, they see the revenue they're turning over or the generating, etc. Etc. He would say. I was going to put this later. The, the. The acquisition. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Who cares? [00:12:36] Speaker B: Like literally who cares? Everyone goes head over heels about acquisitions. We love it and, oh, we're the fourth biggest listed operator. So what? Like, so I actually don't think there's many. There'll be some head office synergies and some corporate like Typico has done fantastically well on its own. Yeah, Beckley's done fantastically well on its own. It's not just in France, you know, it's leading in Portugal, you know, they've got number two in Poland. Poland, you know, all of that, they're, you know, doing an Ivory coast. So they don't really need to because they're not going to do anything in Germany anyway. So like they're bringing the two together and being we're like the number four biggest operator. [00:13:12] Speaker A: It's where they go from there. [00:13:13] Speaker B: No, but say what? Like super bat, you know, doing fantastically well. Kano. Doing fantastically well. No one cares how big an operated they are unless you know if they're big or small. And entane. I'd rather own both of those than entain Evoke. I mean Flutter's done well Fangil. But anyone else just because they're listed, just because they're a big operator. Talking about most of these. Most of these companies we talk about, they buy. They buy smaller operators put them together and five years later they're still run separately. [00:13:42] Speaker C: Like there's. [00:13:42] Speaker B: There's no coordination. There are some like Flutters done very well of taking what's been good in one part of their business and putting it across to other ones. Like Sportsbet has definitely benefited from stuff they've done, you know, in the UK, etc. [00:13:54] Speaker A: But this whole thing, to me it's. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Just like journalists get excited, bankers get paid money. I don't actually think it's an interesting acquisition M and A at all. [00:14:04] Speaker A: I think it is generally for the reasons that I said. I mean like, I'm sure there's. [00:14:09] Speaker B: I will then put. I will then, you see, needle me on your reasons then. Okay. First of all, I think credit what they've done. They've built up these businesses great. But that's been. It's because. It's because a lot of these other operators just haven't bothered to go into the markets. [00:14:23] Speaker A: They have. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Is not a better, in my view is not a better operator than bet365. Bet365 didn't bother to get an online casino license in Germany. They are doing stuff in England sports. But they're like, it's a shit market. Like, why would we concentrate there? So they've been given the opportunity to grow because there is limited competition. [00:14:43] Speaker A: But can you make a like for like comparison there? Because typical is native German operator bet365 is an operator coming from Stoke. Obviously it's very good. I mean no one's like the thing. The thing here is it's not about the comparisons. It's not about saying, oh, this company is now really big. We should still care about them. It's what they can do with that, with what they've learned. [00:15:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:08] Speaker B: So I don't think so. I think they have thrice and I don't know operationally and I could. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. [00:15:15] Speaker A: But look, look out. [00:15:16] Speaker B: They thrived. They've thrived in markets where there is low competition. Okay. You look at someone like a baton, I'm going to say like let's say Batana now, okay. Which also I don't think. [00:15:25] Speaker A: But the rest of the competition, they have also, they have also thrived in a region where they're facing down the black market quite a lot of the time. Let's be honest here. You know, they do have competition, but they've got. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Okay, well then they don't have a. The thrive. Look, you always. Doesn't matter how terrible the regulation is, there's always going to be people who will go with the licensed operators because you can advertise and all that. So. And so if you have very few other licensed operators getting a strong position in that market. [00:15:53] Speaker A: There's quite a few. There is quite a few. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Well, I mean Germany, no one, no one there actually spends any marketing money already. [00:16:02] Speaker A: The thing is about Germany, you're also competing against the state lotteries, which are very powerful and which are dabbling sports. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Betting products. Crap compared to like someone like typical. [00:16:14] Speaker A: If you can do a better product. But these. Exactly. [00:16:18] Speaker B: It's not hard. I could do a better job. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Lotteries are big, well known. They were oppressive. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Typical's got like thousands of shot. I mean like typical thinking wrong how they've grown, they're doing very well. But there's not a lot of competition in Germany, like in my view, France, likewise. Okay, you've got, you've got FDJ and Winamax. Obviously we have to say for Raymond, but you know, betclick's done well but again there's not, you know, there's not loads, you know, Unibet are in there. But again it's not an area of focus. It would have been on because of the high tax. Like people aren't focusing on it. All the big off, all the main international operators pulled out. Portugal, fair play to back click, you know, doing well there because you do have like bet365 and Patano in there. But again there are a limited number of operators in the market but they have got to number one. And that is impressive of hats off. [00:17:04] Speaker A: But I will bring it back to the fact that in the coming years the operators in other countries, like the ones that you're making all these comparisons to, they're going to be playing on Typical and Beck's turf in terms of the market conditions under which they have to operate. And you see from the kind of the industry pushback in The UK against the tax rise we all know is coming. It is going to affect businesses and it is. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Okay, I'll put it this way. Okay, let's look at the Netherlands. Talk about. Yeah. [00:17:32] Speaker A: Oh God. Nothing against the Netherlands, but we always talk about it. [00:17:37] Speaker B: You talked about it. Higher tax rate. Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah. And they put in restrictions. Okay. You talked about FDJ and Kindred. Kindred has seen a larger fall in revenues than any other operator there because they had a lot more higher value players. Okay. So they are yet to say really adapt to that. I mean they're adapting this impact to the most. And if you said, right, let's get rid of slots. Okay, off somewhere bet 365 I think is number three. I think it's Kindred. Then you've got toto bet city, bet 365 around there. But let's say that, let's say the top three. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you get rid of slots. I mean first of all, bet365 are more are going to have. Are higher on sports than slots. Push towards sports so they'll be less impacted. But the only way, if you said right, betclick, there's no slots. Betclick and Typico are going to enter the market in the Netherlands. High tax rate, restricted product. The only way they will get a larger share of the market than bet365 is if bet365 decide they're going to pretty much not care about the market pull or marketing spend if you've been allowed to do it and just not care because they'll say the return on investment is greater elsewhere. They are not just because they're in markets at the moment. I do not believe that that makes them better operators than some of these guys who are doing it in a very tough commercially competitive market. So I would say no to what you said. [00:18:55] Speaker A: I think you're saying to bring on a guest now. [00:18:57] Speaker B: You are great. Let's just start an interview with someone. Now you've annoyed me. And now we've also insulted like you know, Banny J Group and Typico and you have the French and the Germans. [00:19:06] Speaker A: I think I've been quite. [00:19:09] Speaker B: Oh, I'm. Be my friend so I can interview you. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yes, that's exactly how it sounds. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Look, I said they're both. They've both done fantastically well. I just think they have an advantage when they're in markets that aren't attractive to competition. [00:19:25] Speaker A: What of when all markets are less attractive to competition? But on that note, it's time to welcome. How many guests have we had, Ed? [00:19:34] Speaker B: I would say if we include the G2E, which was one plus two. So it depends if you're classing those two as two or three on episodes. We've had two from Clarion, we've had Mark from. [00:19:50] Speaker A: Mark from Extenia, we've had Bruford. [00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's gonna be embarrassing when we forget something else we had. Can't say who. The word G2E. So we had a 2 and a 1. Yeah. [00:20:00] Speaker A: And another one. [00:20:01] Speaker B: Huh. [00:20:02] Speaker A: And another one. But anyway, I. I think this is enough preamble. Come on, let's get a guest on. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And then. No, we haven't had him on yet. Now I'd like to welcome Khalid from the Iberian International Betting Integrity Association, Robin, as our guest. Who is our. How many guests have we had on the show? [00:20:19] Speaker A: If we include the G2E ones. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah. That aren't out yet, probably about six or seven. [00:20:24] Speaker A: So, Khaled, welcome to right to the source. It's great to have you here. [00:20:28] Speaker C: Thank you. And I didn't realize I was one of only a handful of people that's actually made this podcast, so I feel very privileged. [00:20:36] Speaker A: The select few, we like to call them. [00:20:38] Speaker B: And it's not because we get turned down either. It's just because we can't be bothered to invite that many people. [00:20:43] Speaker A: No, I mean, when we invite people, it really matters, you know, we have. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Never been turned down actually, have we? By a guest. [00:20:50] Speaker A: That's true, actually. And that's worrying. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:54] Speaker A: But anyway, look, we've got a lot to talk about. Really want to dig into IBEA's Mission 2030. Let's talk about the rebrand. Also about cross sector collaboration, but I think we have to start with what's going on in the NBA. We talked about it with, I suppose fairly off the cuff as everything is with this podcast last week in the immediate aftermath, but a week on. I think it's good to have a grown up in the room to. To talk about this essentially. And obviously this is a live investigation and you know, we want to be mindful of that. But I was keen to get your perspective as a CEO of iber. [00:21:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, look, obviously this is very. This is very timely and as you can understand, it's very sensitive given our role as well in this. I mean, what I can say is that we. And this isn't the public domain. We reported the original with Johnny John Porter to the FBI and to other stakeholders and I think as a result of that, a lot of things have been unearthed and this is where we are right now. If we take a step back, what this shows me is, and I know it's uncomfortable, but it shows how a regulated market should be working. And the one thing I will say about the US of all the discussions that we've had when the US market was opening up, they took sports betting integrity very seriously. I can tell you, before we turned into an international organization, we were very much European. Betting integrity was always shunted to the end of every conference Thursday afternoon, you know, the graveyard shift. When passbab was repealed and they were looking at setting up the framework for betting sports betting in the US all the states there, they were taking it extremely seriously. In fact, IBER has to be licensed in the US So, you know, they've got all my details, they've got my fingerprints. We are actually licensed in 30 plus states in the U.S. our membership comprises of 11 of the U.S. operators are the 2 biggest fan. Jewel DraftKings are big drivers of our work in the U.S. we've built relationships with the likes of the FBI, with the likes of the regulators. In fact, we have quarterly meetings with the US regulators. So from a collaborative point of view, we have really done a lot of work there. What's happened and what's been happening, the US Is still a relatively young market. I mean, if you think Passpad was repealed in 2018, so six, seven years ago. And unfortunately this is just, this is just part of the growing pains integrity monitors like ours, we've been set up exactly for this and this is actually showing that the process works. [00:23:35] Speaker B: And so you tell your news the podcast because you said six or seven years ago, we'll probably be about eight by the time Robin gets it out. So we need to plan ahead on that. But we were talking about that actually last week. Well, I was giving some words of wisdom actually, I think when this came out last week. So we're saying for the U.S. i think it's two bits that we need to be clear on. One is the poker scandal is completely different to the other. Like whether PASPA was, was repealed or not is irrelevant. That would have still happened. You know, poker scandals and mob and all that stuff was happening, you know, long before. And yeah, on the sports betting, something off the cuff that came to me that I thought was actually first I was thinking, oh, let's hope it's not legal betting sites. And then I said, you know, actually I hope it is as long as they reported it because that kind of shows, as you said, that it is working. So for all the logic that shows it, it's working. If you didn't have legal betting sites, then this would prob be ongoing because illegal sites do not report this stuff. However, what we then went on to say is that doesn't mean that there's not just going to be a media storm and push back against gambling. And you know, it's, the reality is very different to that kind of media, media side of things, isn't it? And it's just stuff. The industry, it's, it's not helpful. [00:24:43] Speaker C: It's not helpful. But we always have to take this. You know, obviously this is always going to be, it's like unfortunate phrase to use, but it's like a plane crash, it's always going to grab the headlines. But like a plane crash, how often does this actually happen? If you look at Iberia and our statistics, I mean, our members on a yearly basis offer over 1,500,000 sporting events. In the since 2017 to 2023, we have reported about 1200 alerts to the relevant sports governing bodies. So that probably gives you an idea of the real kind of extent of it. I mean, on average we report around about 250 alerts a year to the relevant sports governing bodies. So yeah, I understand that this will grab the headlines, but we always have to put it into a context. [00:25:36] Speaker B: And the thing that I've always found quite difficult to match up is because we've collaborated on a couple of things is that bit like reporting crime or any, any other reporting is if there are more reports, there's two ways to look at it. So let's say the number of alerts you had went up. Then on one side you could say operators, our members are taking it much more seriously. We're better at capturing these things because this stuff happens. And on the flip side, you know, it can be used against you to say, oh, there's, you know, more, you know, integrity issues in, in sport and push back against betting because you always, you're always going to have these. I remember speaking to someone just before the subprime issue who was working for a bank and asked them, the US bank said, no, how many, you know, how many faith issues do you have like defaults and fraudulent cases? And they said, none. And he said, okay, well you're screwed because you don't have none. It just means you're incapable of picking them up. So you have no idea. So almost the better you do your job is going to lead to More, more alerts, which is then going to be used as a stick against the industry almost, which must make it quite difficult. [00:26:41] Speaker C: It's been a challenge. I mean, we were the first to actually publish quarterly integrity reports because we wanted to bring transparency to all of this internally. There was maybe a bit of a pushback in the initial stages because they didn't understand why we needed to do this, but we had to do this. We had to do this because this is what was being not asked from the industry. But we just felt that this is part of the kind of the approach that we wanted to be taking, which was to be transparent about these things. And we've been publishing these stats since 2015. You can go all the way back to then. And so it is an important part of the work that we do on the operations side. And especially then we talk about the, just about the alert process and it's also about the collaboration that has to take place with that. Because it's one thing to have the alerts and to have built the relationship with the betting operators, but then of course we're not an investigative body and I think that's one thing we always try to make clear, is that we're there to monitor and to, to alert. But then we need to pass that information onto the relevant stakeholder sports governing body, regulator, law enforcement. [00:27:41] Speaker A: And I think that leads us nicely into talking about the recent rollout of Mission 2030, because that structured around a number of key pillars including I think, strengthening the monitoring alert platform and like you mentioned, you know, one of the other pillars there, expanding collaboration and, you know, kind of essentially kind of improving prevention through kind of more effective regulation. And Iberia is also 20 years old. This year started out as ESSA, you know, the European Sports Security association and then evolved into the International Betting Integrity Association. I was keen at the start of this sort of like renewed push, I mean, terms of the state of the market and the threats. I mean, do you see these as evolving? Do you see these as ever present? I mean, like, like what do you feel the biggest risks are for the industry at this point? [00:28:42] Speaker C: I mean, when we undertook Mission 2030, so we've always taken a five year approach to everything that we have done. You're right. We were originally called the European Sports Security association and in 2013, I think 2014, we abbreviated that to Essa because actually the name didn't mean anything. That in 2018 we went through a consultation process, we looked at where the market was going, the US had just opened up, there was more Markets outside of Europe opening up. And that's when we made the decision to rebrand to the International Betting Integrity association. And then five years on from that. So in 2024, we went through another consultation process. We discussed internally with our members, we discussed with our stakeholders, because they're a very important part of this process as well, about where needed to be over the next five years. And that's where we came with Mission 2030, which is to be the global standard for betting integrity by 2030. It's ambitious, but that's our aim, that's our objective. And while we were doing this process, we did a number of things in tandem. And so one of them was actually the rebranding. We just felt we needed to have a look and feel that better reflected the great work, to be honest, that we are doing internally. And this is one of the challenges that we have, and I think Ed kind of touched upon it before, is that a lot of our good work is behind the scenes. We can never really talk about it because, you know, part of building a relationship with a stakeholder is to build trust, and part of trust is discretion, and we take that part extremely seriously. So Mission 2030 was an opportunity for us to start to anticipate change instead of just reacting to it. And I think one of the challenges we have in our industry is that we're always very defensive and that's normal because we're getting attacked from left, right, center. I think on betting integrity, this is the one area that we have made a lot, lot of progress. If you think back to even maybe 10 years ago, there was two sides. There was the sports on one side and there was a betting industry on the other side. And the sports were basically, yeah, I mean, we were seen as a problem, not part of the solution. Now you fast forward 10 years later, we're sitting in the room. I was at the IOC's event at a big event in Lausanne. We were invited, I was invited to speak and they were very complimentary about the work that IBEA and its members have been doing in providing alert information to them and to their federations. We sit on FIFA's working group, we sit on UEFA's task force. So we are now sitting with the major stakeholders, sports stakeholders that would never have happened 10 years ago. So we've made a lot of progress in this area. So when it comes to Mission 2030 and looking over the next five years, we also need to look at where our industry is going. Things are moving fast. Crypto, AI, what is a role for this, when it comes to betting integrity, we haven't got a. We need to get a handle on that. We're starting to explore that. But also sports. Where is sports going? One of the things that we've seen over the last five years has been the rise of esports. Now, prior to 2020, esports was there, but it's taken off. I mean, during COVID and post Covid, you know, the rise of esports betting has increased. So we need to be on top of that and then we have to look at further. I mean, what we're seeing right now is the fragmentation of sports as well with the rise of privately organized tournaments. Now we have built memorandums of understandings with all the major sports stakeholders, but as you can see, there's new tournaments which are developing and we need to have relationships with them as well. So these are all. This is all part of our Mission 2030 strategy over the next five years. Basically, it's our roadmap. [00:32:21] Speaker A: And then. Sorry, Ed, on you go. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Sorry, I'll just. Esports and other things. Stepping back, if we remember the times of COVID when most stuff got cancelled and there's a lot of table tennis and people betting on table tennis and sports they hadn't necessarily followed before and, you know, ones that perhaps people didn't have stats on, that must have been quite a challenge for you, a bit like you're now facing. That's maybe prepared you a bit for what you're facing now with this, these, these more niche sports that are coming on. You know, we, we have. I'm not sure if you'll have an MOU with them, but we were speaking to someone who does car, car, jetsu, things like that and. [00:32:56] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, well, yeah, so, I mean, no, I remember it very. I remember it clearly. And, and then there was a number of things which actually came out of that which was quite positive. I mean, so one of the things that we did during that period was, of course, you're right, there were all these privately organized tournaments. I remember it was like the SESCA cup and there was events taking place in Ukraine and Azerbaijan and these kind of jurisdictions. We had to build relationships with these privately organized tournaments. In fact, just two weeks ago we had from Better, which is one of these privately organized tournament organizers, they came to our working group in Lisbon to speak to our members by the work that they were doing and that was really well received. And also with esports, we had Riot Games as well come. They were one of the major publishers. They came and spoke to our members as well. So that's also part of the work that we've been doing is bringing the operators with the sport stakeholders. And traditionally those were like the IOC and FIFA, UEFA. That's now expanded out to these other. But then coming back to the COVID period, one of the things that we did actually there was we put together the first standards on data, the Data Standards Group, which now includes the likes of SportsRadar and Stats Perform, because our members, we needed to see some minimum standards when it came to the data providers. And so that was one of the kind of the positive outcomes that came out that period. And again, that was just reacting to the situation at that time and being proactive about this stuff. [00:34:26] Speaker A: And I'm also keen to ask you about collaboration, because you mentioned there, you know, this kind of evolution from sports and betting being very much arm's length now, this kind of greater collaboration, and I'm keen to see how that evolves. I mean, like, whether it's with law enforcement, you know, kind of legislation, you know, where does that kind of collaboration go over the next five years? [00:34:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, look, as I mentioned, when we did the consultation and last year when we were looking at where our direction had to be, we looked, we spoke to sports, we spoke to regulators, we got their feedback. And actually, our new logo is actually designed with the six stakeholders that we work with. So it's six interwoven parts to our logo, which is the betting industry, it's sports, it's law enforcement, it's regulators, it's athletes and its institutions. Is that six that I get? [00:35:20] Speaker B: Institutions is quite broad, though? [00:35:22] Speaker C: Well, yes, because, you know. Well, institutions is broad, but we do work. So, for example, you know, right now we're doing some. We're working with the Council of Europe on some stuff that they're doing. We've been working with the United nations on some of the work that they've been doing. Also, you know, our office is in Brussels and it's Brussels because again, when we were a European organization, we were working with the European Commission and the European Parliament, all these institutions. And so again, that's another core aspect of the work that we've been doing that maybe a lot of people don't see, but it's a really important part for the industry. [00:35:59] Speaker B: I know you can't really say no because you're working kind of with them collaborating, but do they get really get what you do, like these institutions, or do they just kind of see an alert and go, well, that's bad, and, you know, therefore betting's bad. And you know, you lot should all just. [00:36:14] Speaker A: Well, no, no, I suppose that's got to kind of link it into like that alert isn't just going to be. Betting is bad. That is going to flag a pro, you know, that's going to flag kind of issues that affect all these different sports rather than getting a knee jerk reaction, surely. [00:36:31] Speaker C: Well, I mean when it comes to working with institutions, I mean what I will say is that especially the international institutions, they all come from a very different place. For example, a lot of like, for example, let's look at the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe has 47 members within it and each of those members will have a very different view on how they see gambling. The UK for example, very mature market will see it very different from a country like France where, you know, the gambling market opened up, I think was in back in 2010 and maybe even a bit later, maybe 2014, I can't remember. So and so and that will happen. That will have an impact on how they see things and how positions are being made. And of course again we have to navigate all of that and maybe that's some of the stuff that people don't actually. They don't actually see. But we have been doing that for. Yeah, for, for a very long time. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Can I say, I don't know how publicly available your membership list is. Do you have estate monopolies contribute to this kind of stuff? So if you just had a monopoly operator in it. So let's, let's say I'm not asking about them specifically but let's say Greece prior to the market opening was just OPAP doing it would. Or prior to France opening was just FDJ on the legal market. Do monopolies kind of also enter into these things or is it just generally tend to be a competitive market that will do it? [00:37:52] Speaker C: Well, first of all, you can find our membership list on our new website by the way, go to membership and you'll see our B2C operators and you'll see our B2B operators. It's all there. We have actually over 90 betting operators as part of the association and of course we represent the private betting operators. But of course the market is changing. You know, we've seen that firsthand with the acquisition of Kindred Group by fdj. They have their own systems in place. They have their own associations in place. [00:38:22] Speaker A: Good to know that Ed has, you know, done his research. [00:38:25] Speaker B: Well, I was thinking about this, Robin. Given that, you know, you have this huge team at igaming Business that doesn't appear to do much. Perhaps one of them can actually do research for the podcast. [00:38:34] Speaker A: I mean, you could just type in the URL and visit the website. [00:38:38] Speaker C: It's a nice website, by the way. We put a lot of effort into it. [00:38:41] Speaker A: I thought it looks very good. [00:38:42] Speaker B: No, I love the new colors. Yellow. Yellow and black. Yeah, see, I know that. Speaking of. Of which, not entirely related at all, but you must be into sport to be in this whole area, I assume. Yes, yes, well, yes, obviously, you know, I'm into all sports. Shout out to the Oilers again. Great. [00:39:00] Speaker A: A week doesn't go by without. But you're a piece of merch, are you? [00:39:05] Speaker C: Yes, well, I am. I think Robin is from the same part of the world as I am from. And there's generally two teams that dominate that league. [00:39:13] Speaker A: So there's one team that's worth caring about. [00:39:16] Speaker C: Well, that's true. I would agree with that. I think we were both aligned. [00:39:19] Speaker B: We're both aligned. I'm looking. Okay, so one team. That must be Hearts. They're top by six points. [00:39:25] Speaker A: Are they? [00:39:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I mean, look, fair play to Hearts and fair play to Tony Bloom, to be fair. I mean, he's. He's obviously got the Midas touch. I watched some of the game on. I think it was on Sunday. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I have to say it was. Yeah. I was impressed. You know what, it's actually nice to have a bit of competition finally. [00:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's nice to have different competition. It's nice to see the teams, like certain teams, do kind of well, because it always feels a bit out the blue. I can remember, however many years ago, Hearts again under George Burley, they had that incredible start to the season, but obviously that season did end with them not winning the league. And Celtic, for all their faults in the early part of the season, have just reappointed the manager with the highest win percentage in their history. Got us to the UEFA Cup Final. [00:40:17] Speaker B: Well, I must admit. So I know Robin dislikes immensely anyone to do with Rangers for obvious reasons. But one thing we do talk about is there was one person surely you cannot dislike to do. The Rangers. Ally McCoist. I mean, you have to agree with that Khalid. He just must be. [00:40:31] Speaker C: I'm going to keep my opinions to myself. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Don't like Ali McCoy. I don't like Ali McCoist. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Just he's. I mean, obviously it's a long time after his playing days, but in 2018 World cup the commentary really came round to him, you know, and weirdly, I was Talking to a friend about this and they said that's kind of like Tommy Burns for us. He was always the guy that you were okay to like or just big grudge. [00:40:55] Speaker B: The Rangers have just got Wednesday's ex manager, Danny Roll. Yeah, he kept us up great. Threw his toys out the pram when he couldn't go to Southampton because they didn't want to pay his release fee. But he's, he's a good manager so I think, you know, hopefully he'll give a bit more competition there and maybe turn it into a bit more than a one horse league which will make it more interesting for everyone, I suppose. [00:41:14] Speaker A: Got Martin and Neil to contend with. He can still, he can still jump. I watched some of the game against Fall Cook last night and he still jumps up and down when we score a goal. He can still get some height. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Is this just. It's not like Dave and Moy's going back to Everton. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Well, and Everton is suddenly doing a lot better and it's, you know, there's a lot more good feeling around the club. Yes, what a terrible thing to do. But anyway, sorry after that diversion as I just tried to derail things having not even gone in the IBA website. I want to finish up with a question on advocacy because one of the, one of the kind of like the key tenets of The A Mission 2030 is acting as an advocate for viable and sustainable regulation. And it's an interesting time for this push because that's essentially quite a kind of positive message. But from the operator side I would argue that the message is more is less, this is the benefits of a sustainably regulated market and more these are the dangers of the illegal market. So I was, I'm keen to get your kind of perspective on, on really what's the, what would you say is the prevailing mood? Let's, let's talk about Europe because that's the most mature region for online towards gambling regulation. Because what we see is a lot of increasingly stringent regulations to the point where it feels like high tax, high regulation markets are going to be the norm. But you could argue sports are generally not hit as hard by that in the way that I casino is. Should probably actually ask a question within preamble at some point. [00:43:01] Speaker B: You'll get a question out of Robin. It'll be quite interesting, I'm sure the rest of it. [00:43:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So what do you feel the prevailing mood is, you know, kind of like towards the industry, I suppose, very specifically on that sports side because just kind of. Because I think Just to kind of like bring everything together like with this. [00:43:16] Speaker B: Please do with the. [00:43:18] Speaker A: What's the last question? I'm just kind of trying to. I'm just adding it out. I know. I'm trying to add a bit of summing up in here. See what I have to deal with Khaled every week. [00:43:27] Speaker B: Lost your train of thought? [00:43:28] Speaker C: Now maybe I can just step in. [00:43:30] Speaker B: For a second because I think I'll be nice. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:43:33] Speaker C: I think I know where you're going with this. Look from our side. [00:43:36] Speaker B: You do? Okay. [00:43:38] Speaker C: I think from our side what we've so on the advocacy side. So we have the monitoring part of what IBA does and that's a big element of the raison d' etre of the association. But then we have a prevention part and the prevention part is split into three areas. You have the athlete education and that's something we've been working on for over 10 years in fact. And in Europe we educated over 36,000 athletes. We're running a program right now in Canada called the three R's. Know the rules, know your responsibility and know who to report to. So it's very simple. We've got an education ambassador again, it's all on our website. You should check it out. Then we have the, they have the, the policy and research part of what we do. On the policy and research part. This is where we actually use a lot of the IBA data to try and show. Take an evidence based approach. Now we use a firm you might have heard of called H2 to help us with some of these reports. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Just, just on that I noticed we're not down under associate members or anything. I can't even see my brand on there. Nice website. It does seem to be lacking some. Something. [00:44:45] Speaker C: Are you an associate member? I have to look into that. [00:44:47] Speaker B: No, we're not. Not anything according to this. [00:44:49] Speaker C: Okay. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Anyway. [00:44:51] Speaker C: Yes, but anyway so we use this. So we. We've been working with H2 on a number of reports actually. And one of the first reports that we did with H2 was back in 2021 on the availability of. Sorry. On the optimum betting market. So what does a good betting market look like? And what was really interesting from that report was that if you recall Ed, that Canada was right at the bottom of the list. We ranked 20 jurisdictions. UK, Malta were at the top. At the bottom was India and then it was Canada. Canada had a channelization rate of 31%. This is in 2021. We put this report out. Then you Fast forward to 2022 and you take Ontario out of Canada, it just opened up sports betting, you jumped two years to 2024. And you see there's a channelization rate, 92% now. Why is that? It's because when Ontario was beginning to open up its market, it started to speak with the stakeholders about what a good framework should look like. They actually, I mean, of course not every framework's gonna be perfect, but they have a very good model that's there. They've got a good tax rate, they've got a good level of support for the availability of betting, there's multi licenses. These are all elements that you need for a good, healthy framework for a sports betting market. And that's one of the things that we also try and demonstrate is that you need to have elements in place to make sure that you have it viable, healthy. And also betting integrity has to have a role in it as well. So in Ontario, for example, you have to be part of an integrity monitor. And actually IB is one of those integrity monitors that's, that's mentioned. [00:46:27] Speaker B: The leading one, I believe. [00:46:29] Speaker C: The leading one, yes. [00:46:30] Speaker B: And Alberta, you think that's, you're feeling confident about that? [00:46:35] Speaker C: It will happen. Yeah. You know, there's discussions happening. We'll see where that ends up. I think they were optimistic in trying to get something launched in Q1 2026. I don't think that's going to happen, but let's see, maybe by the end of 2026 might be something which is more reasonable. And the other thing to say is of course that our association is a not for profit, it's member funded, we're not a commercial organization. [00:46:57] Speaker A: So that's us coming up in time. So Khaled, thank you very much for joining us. It's been great to see Ed discover the website in real time. Yeah. [00:47:06] Speaker B: And, and with its deficiencies and it's. [00:47:09] Speaker A: And, and it can critique. [00:47:14] Speaker B: No, it is. I had actually looked at it before because I remember looking and going, we've just redesigned our website and ours is compared to what they've done, yours just looks really smart with the map and everything. So fair play, you know. But as we found out through the interview, it's more than just some pretty pictures, you know, the substance behind it. [00:47:31] Speaker C: Well, there is. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Khaled, thank you very much for joining us. [00:47:34] Speaker C: Thank you gentlemen. It's been a pleasure. [00:47:35] Speaker B: Thank you very much. [00:47:36] Speaker A: I thought that was a really interesting interview. [00:47:38] Speaker B: It was. I, I still go with my view that we need a team podcast researcher. I mean we're meant to be giving look out website intelligence on the market and they're relying on us too. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Well, you could have just looked up the website. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I actually did. I did. I just didn't know this through our. Our relationship. I wasn't aware if their membership was public and I looked it up a long time ago, that's all. But anyway, it's a good website. People should check it out, just like. [00:48:03] Speaker A: You did, maybe through the interview. Right. [00:48:07] Speaker B: I think we've dragged this on a bit. There's been a lot to talk about. You've been needling me. I mean, we've covered black market as you're doing every single time. We covered Netherlands as you're doing every single one. We upset people. I upset people. You annoyed me. We showed our ineptitude. I have to say, it's a pretty full on episode. [00:48:25] Speaker A: We've hit all our usual beats, haven't we? [00:48:28] Speaker B: But we've actually shown that people actually watch it. [00:48:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's a terrifying thought. [00:48:33] Speaker B: Yeah. More eyeballs, more ears, more chance of getting sued. I think that's how the phrase goes. [00:48:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, on that note, we already know what we're going to be discussing in the next episode because we didn't get anywhere near OPAP or Uganda. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And funny enough, guess what my view will be on the M and A. [00:48:52] Speaker A: You'll be deeply in favour of it, hugely excited at this new competitor and it's going to be hard to contain your enthusiasm. [00:49:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I look forward to being needled. [00:49:02] Speaker A: I think it's. I think it's a clever deal and I think a fact of the week. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we haven't heard a fact of the week, have you? [00:49:09] Speaker A: Don't think we've even mentioned Sheffield Wednesday this week? [00:49:12] Speaker B: No, we haven't. But as you're there, look, we've got a rumor has it we have a lot of financially strong bigwigs, mainly American, who are showing interest in buying the club, including, and I don't want to allegedly don't get sued by this guy because he's got so much money by Walmart Guy. Family in that. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah, the Walton family. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that would be some serious ammunition. [00:49:38] Speaker A: So let me have a look. So I'm just having a look at the championship table. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah, well, minus six points. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Minus six points. [00:49:45] Speaker A: Yeah. There's Bristol City. [00:49:48] Speaker B: It's not again. So. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Anyway, There you go, 24th. [00:49:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Draw, draw. Well done. Lose, lose, lose. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Look, I'm excited about next season, excited about takeover, excited about next season resetting in League one. But look, you know, when we have, you know, the deepest pockets of any club in the efl. Yeah. [00:50:14] Speaker A: You'll just be the new Birmingham. [00:50:17] Speaker B: No, because we'd have people actually know what they're doing, not just celebrity faces. I mean, they named their club. Was it Peaky? Was it was the thing that did it Peaky Inc. Peaky. And basically it's as if someone. Yeah, it's as if someone watched Peaky Blinders and went, oh, yeah, that must be really popular in the uk. Yeah, let's just. We'll just buy Birmingham. We'll just buy Birmingham. And it's like. Yeah, that's not how sports work. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Does that count as a hate crime, that accent? [00:50:42] Speaker B: No, because no one would be able to tell what accent it was. It was so bad. [00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I never got the appeal of Peaky Blinders. It's just Kelly and Murphy walking in slow motion through some sparks while a modern song plays. Here, look at this. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Peaky Blind. So his company Shelby Companies Ltd. Named after the Shelby family and now they're set to fill the six according to the. The the Sun. I suppose it is a journalism big thing. Birmingham City set to build 62,000. How they gonna fill that seat at chimney themed stadium after hiring Peaky Blinders creator? [00:51:21] Speaker A: I mean, why would they have a chimney themed to. To reflect heavy industry or something? [00:51:28] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:51:29] Speaker A: But like I was like, Peaky Blinders was rubbish. I swear every episode. If you'd taken out all the weird slow mo bits it would. They would have all run for about 15 minutes. It was just like it ran out of steam after the first series and then just kept going. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I enjoyed the first series. I enjoyed the first series. I then stopped watching it after a while because it did run out of steam. They want to set to be nod to the industrial history of the the city with the Adam Soap Works chimney located in Smethwick, holding record for the world's tallest chimney. 312ft tall between 1835 and 1842. I mean, do you know what was good? [00:52:08] Speaker A: Telly. Telly. Do you remember that guy, Fred something? He was a steeple jack and he just basically go up a chimney and knock it down and then have a paint at the end of it. I remember that on the the BBC in the 90s. He was brilliant. It was just like his job was just basically to take down these chimneys. There's a guy from Yorkshire. I think it was really good. If only he was about the puns. [00:52:32] Speaker B: Puns based around 62, 000 seater stadium. I mean it's going to be like Man City's or Sheffield United's, isn't it? It's just going to be 3/4 empty every match. [00:52:41] Speaker A: That's fighting talk. [00:52:42] Speaker B: It's also true. [00:52:43] Speaker A: Yes, it is. So in conclusion, Peaky Blinders is rubbish. [00:52:48] Speaker B: No, Peaky Blinders run out of steam. Sheffield Wednesday's new owners, whoever they are, will be better than Birmingham Cities. And buying a football club because you liked. Buy that from the outside because you liked a, an average tv, a very popular TV program, in fairness, that as I imagine has been broadcast throughout, throughout the world, is probably one of BBC's better selling ones internationally. But because you liked a TV program probably doesn't make it a great idea. [00:53:12] Speaker A: No, no. It's like having watched the Singing Kettle and deciding to buy a Scottish football club. I think that's probably a bit too niche. I don't think anyone outside of Scotland knows the Singing Kettle. [00:53:24] Speaker B: I think Tony Bloom just went, you know what? I'm fed up of those stupid Rangers and Celtic fans. He keeps saying, oh, if we were in the Premier League, you know, we'd dominate it. And we're one of the biggest clubs in England. You know what, I'll just buy, I'll just buy an average club up there. Buy like two players and show them we can win the league. [00:53:42] Speaker A: I wouldn't say Hearts were an average club. I think recently they've been an underperforming club but good luck to them. [00:53:48] Speaker B: Didn't think he recognized other clubs. I thought you was just Celtics, the only good club. How very, very noble of you. [00:53:55] Speaker A: There are other clubs in Scotland. Other clubs are available. It's just that I'm fond of Celtic and Martin o'. Neill. There is, there is something about seeing Martin o' Neill back at Celtic that reminds you of better times. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Well, they're clearly not ageists. How old is he? [00:54:12] Speaker A: 73. [00:54:12] Speaker B: 73. Is that the oldest? How old was Sir Bobby when he is back at Newcastle? Bobby Robson, oldest Premier League manager here. Oh, is Roy hodgson. He was 76 years and 187 days at Palace. So Bobby Robson was 71 years and 192 days. [00:54:33] Speaker A: But on that note, on that note. [00:54:36] Speaker B: Bye for the second time. [00:54:37] Speaker A: Yep, on that note. Thank you very much for joining us for this week. We've crammed a lot in there, for better or for worse. And we'll see you in the next one where we will actually talk about Uganda and opap. See you then.